Mastering the Sales and Marketing Tango: Innovative Strategies for Driving Better Business Outcomes with Events, ABM and Enterprise Marketing

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Welcome to today's episode.

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Our guest today is Leslie.

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She is the CEO of a sales-led go-to-market agency and she has done many great things in her career, including she's made 250,000 cold calls, and we're going to talk a little bit today about how sales and marketing can play together.

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Welcome to the show.

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Thank you so much, and I got a little bit of a promotion from founder to CEO.

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I'll take it, eric.

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Founder and CEO.

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I love it, so tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do.

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Yeah, absolutely so.

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I am a salesperson.

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I'm a salesperson at heart, but I'm a salesperson that loves to blur the line between traditional demand gen and lead gen activities.

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That has been a cornerstone of my success for 15 years as an individual contributor and as a salespeople leader, and it's certainly a cornerstone to my success as a founder, like my success in terms of being able to generate inbound leads using incredible tactics that I've learned from marketers in my sphere and then combining what I think marketing does extraordinarily well with sales-led motions.

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It's not an us versus them game, though it's teamwork.

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It is.

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I got a college degree in marketing, so it's like one of those fun things that I'm like I swear I'm one of the few people that actually gets to use my college degree in my job and there is such a narrative being siloed and there's tons of reasons for it that are very real and legitimate reasons that we don't need to get into.

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But at the end of the day, some of the best things I have learned and then I have taken them and played with them to make them have fit for purpose for me as a sales professional.

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I've learned from CS or I've learned from marketing, so it's all about how we can be better together.

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And exactly, and we're all in the same boat.

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It doesn't help if the hole is on the other side of the boat.

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That doesn't really make any difference.

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So true, so true, slowly sinking still.

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So we're ready to be inspired on that note.

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Teamwork makes the dream work, so we're ready to be inspired on that note.

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Teamwork makes the dream work.

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Tell us a story about some of the best sales and marketing teamwork that you've done.

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Sales and marketing teamwork.

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It is an event led sales driven motion, meaning one of the touch points in the outreach sequence is a live event, and the live event can still be owned by marketing, but then sales is going to drive a outbound campaign around it.

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So I would love to dig into that, because I've run it with a few of my clients now and then I've even tested it on my own on a smaller scale, and it is so successful.

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Yeah, let's hear about it.

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Okay, cool.

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So I think we can all agree that we often think of going to big events as a marketing-led activity, right, like marketing puts up the big moves, then it's, they have the giveaways, they do all the pushes like generally.

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That is something that comes out of marketing budget and what I realized through having my own events brand.

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I have another company I founded where I host events and thinking about how marketing is held accountable for those events.

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It's still a lot of.

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We're just looking for a thousand name badge scans, which is like a pretty gross metric.

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I think everybody's probably like nodding along that they do not want to have the success of their events be benchmarked against how many name badges they could scan.

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But that's still A name, is not?

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a lead.

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A name is not a lead.

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Not, but that's still A name is not a lead A name is not a lead.

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Not a lead, eric.

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A name is not a lead, but that's still the way so many CFOs and so many founders and CEOs are thinking about what was an event successful or not?

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So it came partially out of that and then partially out of seeing these AEs at events and having them like not really know what to do.

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They're in the booth and they're giving used car salesman energy.

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Where anybody comes in the booth, they're ready to like shove a demo down their throat in the booth, they're ready to like shove a demo down their throat and it removes the opportunity bull for there to be, I think, a more valuable measure of what good looks like at events and also for the salespeople to have a really good and productive event, because they're mostly scaring people away or forcing folks that will never be buyers to listen to a pitch.

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That's the thinking of where this came from, and when I see companies, clients, come back from events, what I was seeing most of the time was that every single person that went into the booth was jumped in, dumped into a generic marketing follow-up, was dumped into a generic marketing follow-up.

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After the event, everybody got the same exact email that was maybe like a push to sign up if it was a PLG company or a push to a demo if it wasn't, and it just felt so gross to me.

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It just and particularly with how stringent spam is now like why are we risking our domain reputation on spamming a bunch of event attendees?

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That's not the right way.

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So here's the reframe, folks it is to think about a full sales outreach sequence using multiple channels.

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So we are using email, we are using phone, we are using LinkedIn, we are using direct mail, whatever it is, and now we're just adding events as a channel.

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And so you're still going to have your sales team run a full multi-channels outreach sequence, and then the event is one touch in the sequence.

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I like it.

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I like it a lot.

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Touch in the sequence I like it, I like it a lot.

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I think there's been a big question mark about the efficiency of events and just spending a lot of money on spending a lot of marketing budget and just showing up without any plan fails about 99% of the time because hope is not a strategy.

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Yeah.

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And how many times, eric, have you asked somebody why they're spending 50K on this event?

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And it's not, oh, because we're going to get XYZ benefit.

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It's oh, if we don't, people might talk about why we aren't there.

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Yeah, so let's hear how you put this together.

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Yes, okay.

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So the next layer of this is to reject the boil, the ocean approach.

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We're often going to events where there are thousands of attendees and so that the sort of carryover from the we're going to scan as many name batches as we can mindset is that we want to talk to everybody at the event.

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If we're a salesperson going to the event, if we're a salesperson going to the event.

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So what I have been doing is having my clients put together what you almost think of as like a key accounts or like an ABM list, right, and to really say how many of your key contacts, of your, like, best ICP persona contacts, would you need to meet for this event to be a success?

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And usually the answer is 10, 3, 7, right, it's a really small number.

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So, instead of trying to meet everybody, instead of trying to scan every name badge, we are going to build a really tight contact list.

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This contact list is maybe going to be 10 to 50 max contacts.

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That's going to be who you drop into your event-led sales outreach sequence and the entire purpose of the event is to get FaceTime with only that small list of contacts.

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So it's not about pushing demos in the booth.

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It's not about name badge scans.

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It is about getting face-to-face time with those 10 to 50 people.

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And if you do get face-to-face time with them, amazing.

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Obviously we're going to drop them into a different type of follow-up.

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We're going to make sure that they've been removed from any generic follow-up and if you don't get time with them not a deal breaker you still have put together this like very relevant, value-based, personalized reason for outreach and so you're going to continue the sequence afterwards.

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We're not just going to drop somebody out of a sequence because we didn't meet with them face-to-face.

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We're going to continue those follow-ups.

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And I often include like a direct mail or a gift touchpoint, since it is such a tight list and we can really justify putting in that extra effort.

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And I know it's a sort of small pivot in terms of having the event be one touchpoint, a broader sequence and having more of a key accounts versus a boil the ocean mentality.

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But that small pivot to how we are treating events and how we are investing in events as the sales and marketing team game changer in terms of the results.

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I think this is great.

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I love it.

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The rubber meets the road here when marketing teams invest their budget in going to in-person events conferences and trade shows like the ones you're describing and many times that investment is made because people on the sales team say this is the best industry event.

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We have to be there.

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It's usually something along the lines of what people say, but a lot of people don't take the time to have a playbook along the lines of what you're saying and just to add on to your story.

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What I've done at other companies is Exactly having a list of.

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These are the key accounts that are going.

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It is more of a quality over quantity function of let's meet with the top prospects that are going to this event and even taking it as far as to say let's book the meeting time in advance before the event.

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The meeting time in advance before the event.

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And often I'd even bundle that with an incentive like hey, if you're willing to meet with us for 30 minutes to the event, it could be as simple as I'll buy us coffee, I'll buy us lunch.

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It could be.

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I've actually done incentives where if you meet with us, I'll give you a voucher for an espresso machine for your office so that your team can be fully caffeinated all the time.

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I've done some really creative things like that.

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Incentives work, getting people to make time for you, but booking the time in advance is a key because if you walk into an event with five, 10, 15 meetings booked in advance, then it's not just a hope that you're gonna have the right people wander by the booth.

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And oftentimes at a trade show conference, I'll be there and I'll see 50 people standing at their booths just hoping, praying, that the right people walk by.

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It's hard to watch, like it's really hard to watch, and I think it's kind of the point that a lot of companies are really questioning the cost of the investment, of paying for the sponsorships and the booth space and the travel, if a playbook like this isn't in place.

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And you're so spot on, because sales is asking for this investment in events and it's valid.

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It's where everybody is in events and it's valid.

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It's where everybody is and I'm certainly seeing in my network a real desire for live opportunities to connect and interact.

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So I'm seeing our buyers really crave these chances to gather, to foster genuine connection, to learn in person.

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So events are such a good play, they're such a valid use of spend when the spend is done more strategically.

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And I love what you added, eric, about scheduling the meetings in advance.

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Absolutely, that's something I built into all of the sequences and not just waiting to schedule at the events, like getting on a Zoom beforehand, because how much more profound is an in-person meeting?

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It doesn't have to be sales related in any way, shape or form.

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You've already sussed out that they're interested and you can grab a coffee on site and build that relationship.

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So I think that is bang on.

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One other incentive that's worked really well, in addition to setting up meetings in advance, is looking at the conference schedule and figuring out is there an evening where you can host your own reception or dinner for a small group of these qualified prospects?

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Because people look for those sorts of after event time gatherings.

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They're counting on some of those things being there and that's a great way to build up rapport in addition to trying to set the meetings.

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And sometimes it's hard because sometimes there's not a good evening where there's not a lot of conflicting things, or sometimes the conference throws a conflicting event every night.

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Sometimes it's hard because sometimes there's not a good evening where there's not a lot of conflicting things, or sometimes the conference throws a conflicting event every night and it's hard to get one of those in.

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But often it does make sense to have one of those things where you can get a lot of gratitude for people for taking a small group of five to 10 people out to dinner.

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And if you can do that and maybe even mix in a few clients and customers together, that's even better, because then they start selling each other and you're just like pass the bread.

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It's perfect.

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That's the sort of thing I love to see and most industries.

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It depends what vertical or what industry people are in, but most industries do have these key events where most people from your key accounts will be there.

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Absolutely.

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And pre-COVID in-person events was probably for B2B companies.

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30 to 40% of accounts that were won had a meaningful touch point at an in-person event, and so we had this whole swing with COVID.

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But I think we're swinging back to that point now.

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I can give you a really specific data point because I know from doing a retro.

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This was in my last corporate job and I was selling to like Fortune 500 chief procurement officer, so it was like a big revenue, like account revenue target and certainly a C-suite title.

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But when we did the retro from 2019, so this was right before the pandemic 70% of the closed ones accounts and it was an average ACV of 52K 70% of those CPOs had an in-person touchpoint.

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So either me or somebody on my team went and met with them in person where they were at, or they came to the CPO dinner that we hosted.

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So there is a lot like if you're able to do that type of attribution in your CRM, I think you'll see a pretty direct line to in-person meetings having a positive effect on both overall win rates and also shorter sales cycles.

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And we're seeing to like to your comment about doing things at the end of the day or in addition to the event activities.

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We're seeing a lot of that in B2B SaaS right now and people are having a blast with it.

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I'm seeing small, intimate dinners those work well.

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We're seeing like bigger fun events where everybody's invited and what it's also creating for these companies is just an incredible amount of user-generated content, because they are hosting these super fun, super memorable, like almost a little bit of an experiential marketing flavor in there, and all of these users or potential users are then creating content that's going up on YouTube and TikTok and LinkedIn to get even more eyeballs on the company.

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So it really becomes like a kind of full flywheel play there.

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So I have to share a very quick story about one of the favorite things I've done at a conference.

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I was working with a fintech company in the accounting space and there was a conference in Toronto, in the downtown, the convention center, for a little over a thousand accountants and this is right also before COVID and we're like there was a night open where there was no other competing events, and we decided, because it was right next door, to rent out the Toronto Aquarium and invite all thousand of the accountants to it, and I would say 95% of the thousand accountants came to our event that night at the aquarium.

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So it was right next door.

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It was like almost a blizzard going on outside, so there wasn't a lot else to do and we got a lot of goodwill.

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People came and spent three or four hours with us and we owned that show because we did that, and so there's a lot of creative things you can do like that to really go to an industry event and dominate.

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I love that.

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That is so fun.

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That is so fun and I can see why it worked.

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And I'm seeing tell me if you're seeing this as well, eric I'm seeing a lot of companies actually opt to not spend money on booths and instead go to the event just as regular attendees, bring 10 people everybody's there as an attendee and then instead repurpose that $30,000, $40,000, $50,000, whatever you were going to spend on a booth on and outside of the event activity.

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Are you seeing some of that as well?

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and outside of the event activity.

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Are you seeing some of that as well?

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Yeah, I think that the spending on signage and branding at events, I think that's under a lot of pressure.

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But spending on events around engagement activities, like doing side events, and I think another engagement activity is can you run a session that's not a sales pitch but is a thought leadership session?

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Like people are willing to pay for those things where there's engagement, and there's even a lot of events right now that are selling instead of branding, they're selling.

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You get to have 50 one-on-one meetings during the conference and it's like a hosted buyer program sort of format.

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So I think there's a lot of really interesting ways to go at it.

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But the pendulum's swinging back, I believe, because we all got used to having to do everything over Zoom.

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But the idea of personas is people like to buy in different ways.

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Right and pre-covid, I recalled that no one wanted to buy just from talking on the phone or on webex or whatever like.

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That was like a bit shady to ask someone for an enterprise deal a lot of money just over the phone.

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They're like I don't know you like it was very weird for people.

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I don't know her.

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For that I've closed literally millions and millions of dollars over the phone.

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No one knows her in person, so I'm going to say that's incorrect.

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No, I'm not saying people don't do it.

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I'm saying for some people that they're not comfortable with it.

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Some people prefer some particular roles and it depends on the industry and type of business you're in.

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Some people prefer more to at least meet in person, just know who they're working with.

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The larger the deal is.

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I think that's more of the case.

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It's not that I didn't see also millions of deals get closed over the phone, because that does happen all the time.

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But there are some people who just they always wanted to meet in person one way or the other.

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And so when I say like events where 30 to 40% of the high influence on the funnel that's what I'm getting at, there's like probably some percentage of people in there where that's their preference.

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And during COVID we all got very used to like okay, it's 100% virtual, that's the only way to do it.

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And now I'm just saying the pendulum swinging back where I think there's some people who really do prefer some of the human interaction to make them feel most comfortable about large purchases.

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Because let's face it, at the end of the day, when you're buying something for your company, the risk for you as the buyer the higher the cost of it is.

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If it fails, it could be bad for you, you could get fired, and so that's why I see that comfort factor for people.

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It's not unreasonable for people to say you know what I really want to do some more due diligence.

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I'd like to meet the people.

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I'd like to know the people that I'm tying myself to here.

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Does that make sense?

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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What immediately reminds me of like in sales?

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Why we run multi-channel sequences?

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Because some people prefer email communication, some prefer phone or Zoom, some prefer events, some prefer texting, some prefer LinkedIn.

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Right, and the more channels we can build into our outreach, the more opportunities we have to meet our buyers where they want to be met.

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So it makes total sense to just provide that additional opportunity for people to get to know you in the way that they feel best about.

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Yeah, 100%, the whole thing about personas and marketing.

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When that first came about I don't know, 15 years ago I thought it was a bit confusing.

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But the one thing that always has resonated with me and that is that people like to buy in different ways, just like you were just saying like.

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Some people are like if you text them, they would be really upset.

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Other people are like I prefer you text me.

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Some people are like I just don't want to take time to go to your event, just give me the information, I'll make a decision.

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Other people are like I really need to know if you're the right people, so I want to meet.

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People just have very different approaches and so, from a mixed perspective, back to the very beginning for your story, I think having a good mix and treating multi-channel approach like you just said is the right way to give maximum impact, right.

00:22:45.123 --> 00:22:46.005
Yeah, it's true.

00:22:46.005 --> 00:22:46.365
It's true.

00:22:46.365 --> 00:22:55.354
I talk a lot about the concept of earning the right, like it is my sales methodology, writing a book on it that drops in December Very exciting.

00:22:55.354 --> 00:22:58.326
I know, we were joking before we went live.

00:22:58.326 --> 00:23:03.406
But you're like, you call yourself a salesperson but you like run an inbound funnel with LinkedIn.

00:23:03.406 --> 00:23:04.509
You're writing a book.

00:23:04.509 --> 00:23:06.093
I love to blur the line.

00:23:06.093 --> 00:23:24.413
But the gist of earn the right which I think is true for anybody in a revenue function, like anybody in the revenue function, whether you're marketing, sales or CS, is like what am I doing to make it easy for this person to want to invest in my product or service?

00:23:24.413 --> 00:23:29.471
Like how am I earning the right to their time, to their attention, to their consideration?

00:23:29.471 --> 00:23:46.612
And part of that, surely, is having a great product and having great messaging, relevant messaging and part of it is am I making it easy for this person to communicate with me in the way that they most easily communicate?

00:23:46.612 --> 00:23:48.895
Am I removing that friction as much as possible?

00:23:50.740 --> 00:23:51.221
That's great.

00:23:51.221 --> 00:23:53.262
I'm going to maintain that.

00:23:53.262 --> 00:23:58.529
I think that you really are a secret marketing agent hidden within sales.

00:23:58.529 --> 00:24:01.594
That's my belief, but I'm not going to out you here on the podcast.

00:24:01.594 --> 00:24:03.756
It's okay, I'll keep your secret.

00:24:04.580 --> 00:24:07.119
A secret between you and me and all of our listeners.

00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:25.771
I think final thought is one of the core reasons that marketing and sales have a hard time working together is that both professions often lack a bit of psychological safety, right Like salespeople always feel like their jobs are on the line if they have one bad quarter.

00:24:25.771 --> 00:24:51.496
Marketing people if you've been around for more than a decade, like you've seen your colleague get fired when the company has had a bad year or the economy has gone through a downturn, and so we often spite for attribution because of that, in spite for attribution because of that, and the most effective campaigns that I have ever seen are ones where there is no way to possibly say either sales or marketing did it.

00:24:51.496 --> 00:24:54.164
There's no possible way to silo that attribution.

00:24:54.164 --> 00:25:00.830
It is such a collaboration and creative team effort that it is clearly a shared success.

00:25:00.830 --> 00:25:12.529
So that would maybe be my final sentiment is to collaborate so tightly that it is impossible for the organization to give either one group or the other the attribution.

00:25:14.220 --> 00:25:15.787
I think that's great advice.

00:25:15.787 --> 00:25:22.053
I think marketing sales fighting over attribution is silly, it's so invalid.

00:25:22.053 --> 00:25:41.829
It doesn't really make a lot of sense and I think, in particular when the market is challenging enough, as it is right now, it's very disheartening when I see companies and I see the finger pointing game.

00:25:41.829 --> 00:25:45.329
It's not really helpful, it's not constructive.

00:25:45.940 --> 00:25:46.702
What is constructive.

00:25:46.702 --> 00:25:51.859
Exactly is what you just said is how can sales and marketing work together?

00:25:51.859 --> 00:26:00.035
I think teams should strive for the majority of one deals to be able to show that it was a teamwork effort.

00:26:00.035 --> 00:26:02.263
I think that would be a great goal for a lot of companies to have.

00:26:02.785 --> 00:26:03.385
I love that.

00:26:03.385 --> 00:26:05.189
That's a great call to action.

00:26:06.731 --> 00:26:09.663
All right, thank you very much for being with us today.

00:26:09.663 --> 00:26:11.709
Appreciate your story and all your insights.

00:26:11.709 --> 00:26:23.011
I'm going to link to your website in the show notes so that all the listeners can get in touch and continue this conversation and learn more about these topics from you if they like to do so.

00:26:23.011 --> 00:26:24.184
We appreciate you being with us today.

00:26:24.619 --> 00:26:27.166
Yeah, thank you so much and thanks for everybody for listening.

00:26:27.166 --> 00:26:32.123
And I do post on LinkedIn over a thousand days and counting, so find me on LinkedIn as well.