Mastering Brand Storytelling to Influence Sales: From Mad Men to Modern Marketing

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Today we are talking about the power of brand storytelling and how it can exponentially impact your business in a very positive way.

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We have an amazing branding expert to help us talk through this.

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Timothy, welcome to the show.

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Hi, thanks, eric, Really glad to be here today.

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So why don't we start off by you taking just a minute or two to talk a little bit about who you are and what you do?

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Sure Happy to do it.

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My name is Tim Kalinowski.

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I am the founder of Lore, which is really a brand storytelling agency here, after almost two decades of working at large agencies, working with clients across the globe, as well as working for the Kohler company, which I spent quite a bit of time there as their communications director of brand and creative services, which meant I worked on 52 brands in 53 different countries.

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That allowed me to really get a great view, not just domestically but internationally, of how people build brands, tell stories and have an impact on the customers.

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The reason I started Lore was because I was seeing agencies that didn't have the authenticity or even the integrity sometimes to really help customers and do it in an affordable way, that they weren't just, you know, milking for billable hours or coming up with ideas that, frankly, had already been done.

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So we try to do things as transparent as possible and really become a partner with whoever our client is, so that we're working together for the best of their business so I'm a huge fan, historically, of the show mad men, which was more about advertising than it was about brand storytelling per se.

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So talk to us a little bit about what is brand storytelling and and why is that more important than just advertising?

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well, first off, let me just say mad men is one of my favorite shows of all time.

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I don't think any good advertising or branding conversation should happen without a little of that show.

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But there is some correlation and if anybody's watched that show you know Don Draper, kind of the key hero of the story, the protagonist.

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He does a great job of subtly talking about the psychology behind advertising and the stories that brands are trying to tell, and he would do a great job if you ever watched looking at the narratives of how he would go into a boardroom and try and sell an idea.

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And it was to dig into the emotion of who that consumer was and show who is his client, the vision through that customer's eyes, and that is really the core of what we do.

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They may have done it a little bit more in the Hollywood fashion and sometimes you know the sausage making factory it looks a little bit different in real life, but really great example to that.

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So, in terms of storytelling, what most people don't realize is that 68% of consumers are influenced by a good story, and by that I mean being able to see how their life fits into whatever product or service you're trying to sell.

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We like to call that the aha moment, where we've found or uncovered those nuggets where we can see how this is going to impact a customer's life, and then flip the script and not talk about it from the viewpoint of our client but talk about it in the viewpoint of our customer.

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Yeah, I think that great storytelling can have that sort of impact and change people's mind, versus just showing a picture of the product or an offer.

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Can you give us an example?

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Tell us a story about how you've brought that to life?

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One that comes to mind, which was a super fun one.

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I was doing a product launch for the Kohler company, since I had been there for quite a while, and we had created a toilet that was very fashion forward.

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It was really sleek design, really nothing like it had been on the market before, and we called it the hat box toilet, which it it just it looked like a hat box.

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Frankly.

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It just was this object that did not look traditional, and so we came up with this idea that let's put it fashion forward and make it about you know design and juxtapose it in a space that you might not normally see it.

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So we actually created an entire campaign and bought space at New York Fashion Week and put this toilet as part of the displays at New York Fashion Week.

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So we're sitting there with all of the top designers in the fashion world and, as you're coming down the row of brands that are giving things away and showing off things, you have a toilet, and it was a resounding success.

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Media from all over the world picked it up, but we also got some credibility that it wasn't just about the bold look and having something interesting to look at.

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It was that juxtaposition of where we created something that was utilitarian and put it directly in the middle of the fashion world and we told a great story about it.

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Wow, that's really cool, yeah, unexpected for a lot of people, I'm sure.

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And that's sort of a good way to stand out right.

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It's just to do some things, combine some things like that.

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That would be unexpected.

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So tell us a little bit about brand storytelling.

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How do people get started doing that for their organization?

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What are a couple of the things that you recommend people start thinking about if they want to talk to the president?

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I want to talk to the sales guy.

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I want to talk to people on the shop floor.

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I want to talk to different perspectives so that I can really hear what's going on and hear how things are made and how people describe them.

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And the reason for that is I want to strip away all of these preconceived notions.

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That usually happens in the process of creating something.

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For instance, if you're making a product, you've done some research, product designers and engineers have gotten involved and they create, you know, a product based on a set of features that they know or benefits that they know their customer wants.

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But what happens is they start wrapping that into their own language and they become very not just prideful about it and they should be own language.

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And they become very, not just prideful about it and they should be, but a little too, I guess maybe another way to say is they've lost sight of what the customer or how the customer wants to talk about it or experience it.

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They're talking about it from their perspective.

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So in these sessions we usually talk a lot about you know, how does it work, what does it do, who are the people that are impacted by it, and we ask why?

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About a hundred different ways and somewhere in there we find out the true meaning of what the product was and why it was created, and you know, from that standpoint we're able to start to get to who's using it and why they're using it.

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And that's the foundation of a good story.

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If you know who's using it, why they're using it, then you can create, you know, apply some story based principles to making that a story.

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When you've done these discovery sessions with clients, have you sometimes come up with things that you were totally unexpected?

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Oh for sure, it happens all the time.

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You know, there was one recently with a customer, a product-based company, and they wanted to get launched into some new markets.

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They wanted to expand their business a little bit, and so they contacted us to help.

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And one of the things that came out of the discovery sessions was, almost unilaterally, everybody agreed that they were the best kept secret in the industry, meaning nobody knew who they were.

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So there's a gigantic problem if nobody knows who you are.

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So then we're able to start pulling on that thread to go okay, why does nobody know who you are?

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What are you hiding?

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Why haven't you been out there?

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And they really have just made such a good product.

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They've lived on referrals for over a hundred years and they've never tried to market themselves or put themselves out there.

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So as the economy tightened, things changed, regulations have changed, they needed to hustle and get into some new places and they needed to introduce themselves kind of for the first time in a hundred years, and that really started to stone a path to find the right story for them.

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That's great.

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So when you're going through this process and you get to some of those really good insights, what makes a really good brand story, what makes it come together?

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So interesting, and we've been hired by some very, very large companies to come in and even help train people on how to tell stories for meetings.

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Even you know how to present to executive members or how executive members can present out or talk to board members the principle and it's really not a giant secret if you've ever taken an English class, but you may have heard of Gustav Freitag, which Gustav was the first person to look at honestly plays, theater, and how they were telling stories, and he started to map what was happening and there was this kind of underlying theme and consistency that he kept noticing.

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And if you look it up you'll see that there's, you know, typically five parts to this, but essentially it's, there's a rising action, a falling action and things kind of come together.

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As you know, that that, that pinnacle of the story, the, the, the point where it all starts to come together.

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And so the rising action is usually describing what the challenge is, what that opportunity is.

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And so the rising action is usually describing what the challenge is, what that opportunity is.

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And so, from a brand standpoint you know, maybe it's a pen or a pencil that you're trying to sell, right?

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And so that rising action, just like some of the old sales you know, sell me this pen.

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It's understanding and telling people why they kind of, why they need that pen, because you've already done the listening, so you're repeating that back to them.

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You understand who they are, and it's it's not just because they need to write something down, it's are you writing a check to buy a new house, or you know it's.

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You start to get into the emotion of what they're doing with it and why it's important to them.

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Right.

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And then the falling action is that resolution which is oh, you need this pen.

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This pen gets you through it, but it's understanding that tension between those two and how to answer those callings.

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Yeah, that makes sense, and it seems like there's a pretty big disparity in companies who are good at brand storytelling and companies that are not good at brand storytelling.

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Right, I mean, like, what have you observed is the difference in the results from companies who deploy really good brand storytelling versus those who don't?

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Well, let's, let's use Apple right.

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I use a lot of Apple products.

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I think a lot of people use Apple products.

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Probably half of your users are better have iPhones in their pocket right now.

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Apple, from an early time, decided that they were going to talk about the experience and kind of that benefit to the user of having that product not all of the features in the product, right, not all of the features in the product right.

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So think about television spots or advertisements for the iPhone.

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They're not talking about the phone.

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They're talking about filming somebody's birthday party and capturing memories and experiences along the way.

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It has nothing to do with having a phone, it's just that this device happens to be in your pocket.

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So when your kid's birthday party pops up and you don't have a camera, you're holding your phone and you're recording what's going on and it's happening real time.

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Those are the types of stories that people resonate with.

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Yeah, that makes sense.

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I'm curious how do you think brand storytelling is changing in the world we live in today, with TikTok and everyone having a smartphone?

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Do you think it's evolved?

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There's no doubt.

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It's constantly evolving, so it actually makes it more important to get really good at this.

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So, statistically, in the U S, an adult sees over a hundred thousand words a day between all of the platforms that we use, which is a staggering number.

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If I said to you, did you know?

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You read probably a hundred thousand words a day, I pretty sure you tell me there's no way I do that, but statistically that's true.

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And so we start to kind of self edit everything around us.

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Right, how fast do you scroll through something?

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You see something, you don't wait for it to finish if it doesn't capture you right away.

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And that's really the essence of what a consumer is today.

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If you can't capture their attention right away, you've lost them and there is no conversion, there is no click through, there is no sale, there's no new lead.

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You have to capture their attention and you're not going to do that unless you have a really good story.

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How important do you think brand storytelling is?

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And business to business versus business to consumer?

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Is it equally important?

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Yeah, very much so, and I think in my experience and I've done almost 30 years now, probably as much B2B as I have B2C projects and what I think probably frustrates me the most is oftentimes people forget that consumers are consumers.

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If I'm a B2B buyer and I go home and I'm a B2C buyer, I didn't completely change my personality.

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I've just gone from one place to another place and I can appreciate that when somebody tells me a story or somebody connects with me for a product or service that I need to buy, whether it's at work or at home, that line between traditional, oh, b2b can only be in these places and B2C can only be in these places and you can only talk to people this way, that line is blurred because for almost 20 years, since this increase in social media for sure the last 10 or 15, people want things that are quicker.

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We call it snackable.

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Sometimes they want quick bites.

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You know you even brought up how you know you can tell on your podcast how long people want to listen.

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There is a reason for that.

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It doesn't have to be one or the other, but how we create stories, how we talk to people and how we engage with people isn't like it used to be.

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It is very similar now and the attention span is just as quick.

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91% of consumers, whether they're B2B or B2C, want authentic conversations with their customers or with the brands that they're buying.

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I mean so if 91% of your customers are telling you that you need to be more authentic and more engaged with them, that's not a difference between B2B and B2C.

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That's just the state of the U S consumer.

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Yeah, I agree with that a hundred percent.

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That makes a lot of sense.

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I think there's a lot of discussion about, in particular, in B2B.

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You know, about what is the right balance between branding, focus and generating demand, how, how should people really think about that?

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What is a what is a fair balance?

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And what we've been talking about with branding, brand storytelling and then generating demand?

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How should people think about that?

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if you think of the conversation I just had with authenticity right, if your brand isn't a really strong brand, right, customers will pay more.

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Statistically, they pay more and they're willing to go further for a brand that they trust, right?

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So when you're looking at, how are you converting sales?

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And what does that mean?

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Nuts and bolts, at the end, if your brand is a weak brand, if you don't have a great brand story, if you're not a brand that people recognize, if you're not trying to be a brand that recognizes something that looks and feels really good, now you're a commodity and people aren't going to pay as much for a commodity, so it can work and you can sell things as a commodity.

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People do it on Amazon all the time and I get into this argument where, hey, if I buy enough ad space and I just push things out there and I'm selling it cheap enough, fast enough, I can make money in volume and they're right.

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But that's not a lasting proposition either, because, as a business owner and a lot of small business owners and occasionally we do work with small business owners they're living and dying by repeat business Because it's hard For a B2C business.

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You're talking anywhere from $50 to $150 for a customer acquisition cost, meaning when you're putting ad spend out and you're trying to market to people, every one new customer you've had to spend 50 to $150 on average, and sometimes it's higher, to get a new customer.

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I rarely see a lower than 50.

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Now if you're B2B and it's, you know, at a larger scale, where maybe a customer lead time is a year, that cost is somewhere between three to five, even $7,000 per customer.

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So you want repeat customers because the acquisition cost is so high.

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You're either out there chasing the bottom of the barrel and just trying to sell things as a commodity or you're trying to build a business and build a brand, and that's the biggest difference that I see.

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You have to have a high customer lifetime value right.

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Yeah.

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The acquisition costs worthwhile Is, that is, that the moral of the story.

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Moral of the story, you know, we see things all the time where somebody is like oh, I'm going to sell a t-shirt on Etsy or I'm just going to, you know, do something quick.

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And they do, they make money at it, but they're not creating a brand, and when that sale or that product is done or gone, the business is gone.

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I mean, you're just making quick sales.

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You got to think about all the value you can get, including repeat sales upsells.

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That makes a lot of sense, why people understanding who you are, knowing you, trusting you, has a big impact on that.

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So let me ask you what is the best advice you could give about brand storytelling, based on all the work you've done on it over the years?

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years.

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The best advice Listen, make yourself and your team listen.

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Just kind of separate yourself your ego, everything else that's in front of you, and look off to the side and listen to your customers and try and understand them to the best of your ability.

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Because I promise you, if you really understand them and you really kind of get into those little nuggets of how they live their life and what's happening in their life, you will find a rich, rich place in which you can grab ideas and start communicating stories.

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Yeah, I think everybody has to work extra hard to set aside our preconceived notions or theses about certain things.

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You know, very smart people come in with strong opinions about how they think things should be people in the corporate ivory tower.

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If you will come up with these ideas, you know, without talking to the people on the front lines of the company, without talking to the customers, and they come up with stories they tell themselves that just don't make any sense and they're not authentic.

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You know to your point.

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So I think that that is requires some more muscle memory than than most people realize, because I think our tendency is to tell ourselves, tell ourselves some really interesting stories, right?

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absolutely the stories we tell ourselves.

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Any final thoughts?

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what I would tell everybody is this is the fun part of you know, your I mean, let's assume the funnest part is you know you have the most fun when you're making a sale and converting a sale, but I personally I think this is the the second most fun thing that a business will do, which is understand their customers and have a conversation with them and talk to them in a way that shows that you know what matters to them, and that's kind of the heart of where it's at.

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And it takes a little bit of patience and a little bit of time, but not that much you know, and I find I've done really expensive research projects with companies to try and get new insights.

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And what I find is if you really sit and ask each other and kind of strip away all of your preconceived notions of your customers, you will find the answer, and you probably already have the answer, and then it's just a matter of going out executing then either doing it yourself or finding a team like mine that can help you get there.

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I love it and every day when I talk to customers and tell them a brand story, I can tell when it's resonating with them and when it's not resonating with them.

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And you know, often over the years, at different companies telling different stories about different brands of, like, wow, we really need to change this story because this is just not working.

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Like you know when it's not working when you're sitting with somebody, like you're saying, and you also do know when it is really working, Like the flip side of it is also true when people are with you and they're nodding their head and they're not on their phone and they're engaged and they're excited.

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You can like see it in their eyes, right?

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I think that's the thrill of victory, right?

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Absolutely.

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I mean, I think you said it really well, you know, in terms of seeing those results and understanding what's happening.

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You know we live in a very digital age right now and you know, compared to when I started my career, we didn't.

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You know you do an advertisement.

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You might put a little, a special phone number, a code at the bottom of a print ad to try and figure out who saw it or where they were calling from or what magazine it was in they were calling from or what magazine it was in.

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You know, nowadays you're clicking something and we're tracking from the point it's clicked all the way through.

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So if you have a good digital media agency who's helping you buy media and we do this for clients all the time you know we're able to tell you where they're coming from, where they went, what they did.

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And if an ad isn't resonating, especially if you have several out there, you know we're on a daily basis for any individual customer, client we're looking at is this image working, is that image working, is this headline working better than this one?

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And we're analyzing that stuff every day.

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So you know, I've, I've, I had somebody from a very large company talk to me and say hey, no, we've got some new ads out.

00:23:57.246 --> 00:24:04.300
We've been running them for six months and our agency says we should probably know if it's working in another couple of months.

00:24:04.300 --> 00:24:09.477
And my answer to them is you're getting taken for a ride because you will know.

00:24:09.477 --> 00:24:16.420
You know very quickly sometimes days, but for sure within weeks if things are resonating or not resonating.

00:24:16.420 --> 00:24:24.019
And you know it's up to you to make those changes, because you're spending the money and not going anywhere with it and most likely you didn't have the right story.

00:24:25.564 --> 00:24:26.125
Yeah, that's.

00:24:26.125 --> 00:24:33.114
The benefit of the golden era of technology we live in today is that the feedback is a lot more real time.

00:24:33.114 --> 00:24:37.506
You don't have to wait for long periods of time like that.

00:24:37.506 --> 00:24:43.729
Well, I really appreciate you being with us today, sharing all of your stories and your insights.

00:24:43.729 --> 00:24:52.983
I'm going to link to your website so if people want to get in touch and chat with you more about this, they can do so Really appreciate you being on the show today, thank you.

00:24:53.827 --> 00:24:55.394
Thank you so much, eric, really appreciate it.

00:24:55.394 --> 00:25:00.106
I hope everybody does great and picks this up and starts telling wonderful stories.