How to use Cognitive Empathy as a Marketing Super Power to Create Big Ideas Worth $100M+

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Welcome to today's episode.

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Our guest today is Rob Volpe.

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He is the CEO and founder of Insight360.

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And today we are going to be talking about curiosity and empathy and marketing leadership.

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Welcome to the show.

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Thanks, eric, it's great to be here.

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Why don't we start off by you giving people just a minute or two of context about who you are and what you do?

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Sure.

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So I'm the CEO and founder of Ignite360.

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We're an insight strategy and training firm.

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We help our clients connect.

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We create experiences for our clients to really connect and ultimately identify with their consumers, which leads them to being able to make better product services, marketing, advertising campaigns.

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And then we also do a lot of empathy training.

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I'm also known as an empathy activist I wrote a book about that and help people understand how to use empathy to succeed in business and in their personal lives.

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Awesome.

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And you help marketers and companies come up with big ideas, right, yeah, that's part of what you do.

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It is all about finding that one big idea.

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So those experiences that I talked about, when you start to synthesize that and figure out, what does that mean?

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It is distilling and you can do a research project and just have tons and tons of data and lots of data points, and that can create a lot of paralysis.

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But what you want is to find that one big idea, that framework that's going to move everything forward.

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So we do what we call dynamic storytelling, which is finding that idea and making it relatable to our clients so that they're inspired and can, in turn, tell that same story in their organization to help drive action and results on their side.

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I love it.

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Big ideas and creative execution is two of my favorite cultural attributes, tied together within companies.

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So we're ready to be inspired.

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Why don't you share a story with us about some of the best marketing that you've done, that you're the most proud of?

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Yeah, and as I reflect on my entire career, there's quite a lot, and Unite360 has been around for 13 years, but one of them I'm going to take us back to 2012.

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And the Greek yogurt was a big thing.

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They were Chobani and Faye and all of that was eating the lunch or the breakfast of a lot of the different yogurt companies, but also the breakfast cereals.

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People were really starting to shift how they were eating and thinking, and so General Mills hired us to do a project with their innovation team to try to get at and understand what people were really looking for out of breakfast today.

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Or, in a contemporary way, went out, did a bunch of in-home interviews and, as we were synthesizing and working with the team on what it all meant, the clients asked us to stand up and share and be the voice of the consumer.

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And the analogy came to me that cereal in this case and what we were hearing.

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Cereal is like the Chinese food of breakfast.

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It's something that we all crave, but then we're hungry a couple hours later and that's playing off of the stereotype of Chinese food you really love it, but then you're hungry, and that matched up to what we were hearing from consumers about breakfast cereal.

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General Mills is one of the largest breakfast cereal companies in the world, so for them that had a lot of meaning.

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That was sticky language.

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It was a big idea that they were able to hold on to and be inspired by, and within six months to a year they had launched Nature Valley Granola Protein, which is still on the market.

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They had a line extension of Cheerios that included protein and a Fiber One line extension that also included that and I was told it generated about 150 million in incremental sales for them.

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So that was a huge win and then proven by the fact that two years later, when people rotate in those large CPGs so we were meeting with, the insights director of the serial division was somebody that hadn't been on the project originally and we were catching up and finding out what was going on.

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And she leaned forward and she said to us she's like we have a saying around here Cereal is like the Chinese food of breakfast and that's something that has inspired everybody and I was with my COO at the time.

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We were like, oh my God, I created that, I coined that term.

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So that's kind of one example of a home run.

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Another time also with General Mills and their yogurt team.

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They were looking to figure out how to revitalize Yoplait because, again, chobani and all the things related to that, and so we went out and met with their lapsed users, so the people that had left the brand, and helped identify what the things were that the people missed about Yoplait and what they were looking for in their yogurt moment.

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And because we helped the team connect with that and identify with those consumers, that led them to successfully ideate and innovate and create WeYogurt, which we was a huge home run when that launched.

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I think the first year was $107 million in revenue, which is a home run in the CPG world in terms of new products, and they actually couldn't make it fast enough.

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They had to turn off the advertising because the demand was outstripping the supply and they couldn't catch up, so they needed to soften.

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The demand was outstripping the supply and they couldn't catch up, so they needed to soften the demand a bit.

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Amazing examples those are great examples of big ideas, and it really just came from helping people think differently about the story, like you said.

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Yeah, it's all about looking at things from a different perspective, trying to identify with someone.

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We too often keep our customers, our consumers, our clients.

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We treat them like something to be studied under a microscope or in a lab instead of going wait a minute.

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These are real people.

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What's really motivating them and how can I relate to them?

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Because when you're able to relate to them, then you're able to create the products and services that they're going to connect with.

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There was a study that a division of MNC Saatchi ad agency did back in I think it was 2018, that found that brands routinely lose $300 million in revenue each year because they don't put empathy into their experiences as they're developing products and marketing for their consumer.

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Yeah, so two of the things that you talk about with your company and in your book is curiosity and empathy.

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And curiosity I'm a huge fan of for marketers in particular is because I think just asking questions, being curious, like the sign you have behind you in the video here, is you got to ask the questions.

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You have to ask more questions.

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You have to ask more questions.

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That's the that's, I think, to.

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One of the big keys to being successful in marketing and business leadership overall is if you're not curious, you're dead is the way I look at it, so I love that.

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But empathy is one that I hear a little bit less in terms of people talking about how to do leadership with empathy or how to do marketing with empathy.

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So can you share with us what you think that means and how people can start moving towards doing that?

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Yeah, empathy is really misunderstood by a lot of people still, and because they don't fully understand what it is and how to utilize it, they end up not or they misutilize it.

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So I spend a lot of time when I'm giving talks and workshops demystifying empathy, so just getting everybody on that same page.

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But here's the thing and this is a paradigm shift people need to make Empathy often gets referred to as a soft skill.

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What if you thought about it as a superpower?

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Empathy often gets referred to as a soft skill.

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What if you thought about it as a superpower?

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Because empathy is actually something that fuels your communication, your ability to persuade others, to collaborate, to make decisions, to ideate, to reach forgiveness, to build trust.

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Empathy fuels all of those things and more, and those are skills that are really vital to be successful in whatever role that we're playing in our life.

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Empathy as a marketing superpower seems very powerful, because everything you just said is really what marketers do when you get down to it.

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Absolutely.

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It's about understanding.

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And this is the thing.

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People get confused.

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They think, oh, having empathy means I'm feeling the feelings of somebody else.

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Yeah, that's a form of empathy.

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It's called emotional empathy, but there's also cognitive empathy and eric.

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Cognitive empathy is that seeing the perspective of other people, to understand where they're coming from, to identify with them, and that's what we want to use and incorporate.

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And one of the things that I was thinking about as I was taking a look at your book is that ChatGPT is not really capable of empathy per se.

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Not really.

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You're mirroring, you're reflecting back.

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So what 4.0 does is it senses where you're at and tries to match it or maybe calm you down, but it's not truly empathy.

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It's very superficial in the way that a narcissist uses empathy to cognitive empathy.

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They're unable to have emotional empathy, but a narcissist will use cognitive empathy to try to manipulate people.

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They'll try to get into somebody's head.

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That's a form of cognitive empathy and AI at this point in time is doing that.

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But because people don't fully understand what empathy is and isn't, they're going oh yeah, this is really empathetic and in reality it's not there yet.

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Yeah, I think that's.

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My main point is that it isn't there yet.

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I was trying to explain to somebody why, for marketing chat, gpt really isn't there yet.

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We just take it over in a lot of ways and I was explaining a lot of it as it doesn't get the context.

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But I think a better way of saying that is it doesn't bring in empathy or stories or curiosity really into the equation at all, and these are some of the things that make some of the best marketing and help come up with the biggest ideas, rather than just regurgitating sort of reference or research material, which is helpful but it's not really on par with what we're talking about, right?

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Yeah, and when you think about the things that really make us human and what we really connect and relate to, story is one of them storytelling and effective storytelling.

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And empathy is another.

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Empathy is a human trait.

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We're all born with it and the AI is not programmed for that at this point in time.

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In fact, it's programmed a little bit in the opposite direction is, when you use AI to do things like generate your resume, it beige-ifies you.

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Oh my God, so much.

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Anytime anyone in HR gets a resume that's created with AI, they can tell that you've been beige-ified and that's just another artifact of it.

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Lacks any sort of real story or empathy, right Like you're saying.

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Yeah, it lacks soul at this point.

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So, yeah, it's beige.

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It's lacking those individual words that make someone's writing or communication distinct and unique to them.

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And what is generative AI?

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It is looking at what's the next logical word based on all the other words that have come before it in that context.

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So, of course, it's going to give you lowest common denominator.

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It's going to give you beige, because when you smooth everything out, you end up getting beige.

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So I guess the challenge for people is do you want to be beige?

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Is that your brand?

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Is that what you're all about?

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Or are you willing to use beige as a base and build onto it and add the human elements to it?

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And I just bring that up the AI angle, because that's what a lot of people think the answer is these days, and even without AI, if you're not pulling these things in, you're pretty beige.

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But what are the five steps for business leaders and marketers to become more?

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empathetic.

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So thank you for asking the five steps to empathy, which is what I share in my book.

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But I bring it all to life using my own misadventures with trying to have empathy.

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As I mentioned, I do marketing research.

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I have been on over a thousand in homes in my life.

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I've met with multiple thousands of people across focus groups and other situations and I really took a look at what was getting in my way and tell those stories and they're often rather entertaining because I'm very vulnerable about where I screwed up, what I got right, what I do differently.

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But the five steps to empathy the first one is dismantling your judgment.

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So that's about not being judgmental and it's the hardest one.

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It gets in most people's way.

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But the second one is asking good questions and making sure that you are asking open questions rather than leading questions, and these are all things that people need to be doing in the moment with other people and be aware of and catch themselves and course correct so that they can try to get to a place of empathy.

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So step three is to actively listen.

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That's about being present and paying attention.

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Step four is integrate into understanding.

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That's making room in your head that just because you believe one way doesn't mean that somebody that believes a different way or has a different behavior or process is wrong.

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You want to be curious about it.

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And then, finally, step five is use, solution, imagination, and that's about taking the things that you're learning and picking up and utilizing it to ask the next question or move things forward towards that positive outcome.

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And so what do you think is the hardest thing for people about being empathetic and putting those five things into play?

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It seems like separately they're pretty easy.

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Together altogether they might be a little bit harder.

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But what do you think the hardest thing is for people to have that sort of empathy?

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Yeah, Somebody said to me once about the five steps.

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They were like yeah, they're simple, but they're not easy.

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And the hardest challenge for people, what I see, is typically dismantling their judgment.

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And this isn't, again about making a judgment.

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You still need to make decisions, but it's those times that you're being judgmental about somebody else, You're letting those negative thoughts based on prejudice, your bias, stereotypes come forward and it's creating negative outcomes.

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You're thinking negative thoughts, you're saying you're taking action based off of those things.

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That gets in so many people's way.

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So dismantling your judgment is really critical.

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It's.

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Otherwise it's like a brick wall that is just insurmountable.

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You can't scale over it.

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And so it seems like being judgmental, just as humans, it feels a natural evil that we gravitate towards to a guilty pleasure, if you will.

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I don't know, there's just something that I think makes people gravitate towards to a guilty pleasure.

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If you will, I don't know, there's just something that I think makes people gravitate in that direction.

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But from a business perspective, can you think of an example, like in marketing and business, where people do that, where they use judgment?

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Is it about their product?

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Is it about their competitors?

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Like what's a common example that you see?

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I've experienced in my time people being judgmental about their competitors rather than having a healthy respect for them.

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It's like they're your competitor for a reason.

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They might be doing something right.

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There might be something for you to learn.

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So try to turn that around.

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Look at it from a different perspective.

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And the same thing happens with the consumers.

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I've seen plenty of examples.

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I won't name names, but I've seen plenty of examples in various large companies and smaller ones too, where the consumer ends up getting mocked or belittled, not to their face, but they're not respected, and I've always found that odd, because if no one's buying your product, you don't have a business.

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I would think you would hold those individuals in the highest regard and do everything you could to identify with them so that you could make even more products and better services and better marketing.

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That was going to resonate with them so they'd buy more product.

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Yeah, even gladiators are respectful right, so I think that's a great example that they respect the sort of tradition of competing and that sort of analogy.

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I can see how people could do better by not being judgmental in that way couldn't do better by not being judgmental in that way and so I'm going to link to your book in the show notes so people can get there and go deeper on these five steps Because, like you said, simple in concept but maybe harder to put into practice.

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I'm sure you give a lot of great insights and how to do that in your book, so I'll link there in your book if people want to get it.

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I want to circle back with just two more questions on big ideas, because I think that's awesome for marketers.

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One of the things that you have on your website says that in helping people come up with research, to get these great insights, to come up with the big ideas you say, you courageously help people speak up and step in.

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Can you talk about what that means?

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Yeah, that's one of the values in our organization, of the values in our organization, and it's about feeling like if you see something, feel like something should be done differently.

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I've always said there's the only sacred cow at my organization is quality.

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Everything else, and how we get there, is all subject to continual improvement and learning.

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So I wanted to foster a culture where people felt safe to speak up and actually then do something about it as well.

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It's not it's one thing to point fingers at problems, but it's okay.

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Here's the problem and here's what I think we can do about it and what I'm willing to do in its course.

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And the other value you had was listed was think beyond the obvious.

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Can you talk about that a little bit?

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I guess I could call it think beyond beige.

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There's.

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It's so easy to especially imagine you're analyzing huge amounts of data and you're processing it, and whether you've used analytical software as service analytical tools or you've got your human brain working on it, you start at the kind of base, obvious stuff, and so it's in those moments where we're stepping back from the analysis and instead talking about what we've learned and what it means and applying principles of storytelling, identifying the tension or looking for the deep metaphor.

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That's when the big unlocks happen and that's when we're able to create something like cereals, a Chinese food at breakfast, or to help the team.

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That was when we're able to create something like Cereals of Chinese Food at Breakfast or to help the team that was making Wee Yogurt really relate.

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There's Intermountain Healthcare as a hospital network in the Rocky Mountain states and we helped them connect and identify with their patients and the patient journey.

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But the way we did that was by writing the report in first person, so it was coming from the voice of the patient rather than oh, we're the third party people doing an analysis, and it is the most powerful report I've ever read.

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It actually moved.

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I didn't write it myself, but it moved me.

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I teared up when I was reading it because it was so powerful, up when I was reading it because it was so powerful and it's now infusing a lot of the language that they're using in their communication because they were able to identify with it.

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So it's thinking beyond the obvious.

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And another great example, at the same time, of thinking about things in a different way, of writing it from the point of view of the patient.

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It's just a different way of thinking about it, right, putting yourself in the other person's shoes, if you will.

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Exactly, exactly, exactly.

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That's what it's all about.

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All right, I think you had an offer for listeners if they wanted to drill deep and learn more about some of these topics.

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Could you share that?

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Yeah, so I offer empathy, training, workshops, presentations and, for listeners of the podcast, if they reach out and mention Remarkable Marketing, I'm offering a 20% discount off of the standard rates.

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Awesome.

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Thank you very much for that.

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Any final thoughts?

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Anything.

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I didn't ask that you'd like to share on this topic, that we didn't cover Anything.

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I didn't ask that you'd like to share on this topic that we didn't cover.

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I often talk about how it's important to try to have courage to be empathetic, because it is still something that's misunderstood.

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People are concerned that they're not going to be respected and it is a superpower and just like a superhero, you need to have a little bit of courage.

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So it's not running the burning, building courage.

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It's small doses of courage to do things differently.

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So that's what I would encourage all the listeners to do.

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Amazing advice.

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Thank you very much for being with us, rob, and sharing these stories and these insights with us today.

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We really appreciate it.

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Thank you for having me.

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I've really enjoyed it.