How Business Leaders Win by Approaching Marketing as an Investment

WEBVTT

00:00:00.500 --> 00:00:02.101
Welcome to today's episode.

00:00:02.101 --> 00:00:04.884
Our guest today is Jackie Russo.

00:00:04.884 --> 00:00:08.490
She runs her own agency for the last 20 years.

00:00:08.490 --> 00:00:11.333
She's an author and a podcaster.

00:00:11.333 --> 00:00:12.734
Welcome to the show.

00:00:13.455 --> 00:00:14.176
Thanks for having me.

00:00:16.000 --> 00:00:21.446
Why don't we start off by you sharing just a minute or two about who you are and what you do?

00:00:21.446 --> 00:00:21.527
Who?

00:00:22.108 --> 00:00:23.028
you are and what you do.

00:00:23.028 --> 00:00:26.353
Sure, I grew up in Louisiana, in Lafayette, which is the heart of Cajun country.

00:00:26.353 --> 00:00:39.517
After my time at the University of Louisiana go Cajuns I moved to Los Angeles and so my first real job not counting the bartending I did to pay my way through school was working at Creative Artist Agency.

00:00:39.517 --> 00:00:46.981
So I got to work with these amazing actors and actresses and writers, directors, producers all A-list Worked with is code for.

00:00:46.981 --> 00:01:03.392
I fetched coffee for those people and left the firm after a couple of years to start a production company with a director client, produced two major motion pictures, got to do the marketing for those, did product development and got to do the marketing for that.

00:01:03.920 --> 00:01:08.329
And that led me to Home Shopping Network, where we sold out of our products a number of times.

00:01:08.329 --> 00:01:17.564
So I got a call from the team at HSN as they were growing and got brought in to go work directly for the company and this was right when they were going through a major rebranding.

00:01:17.564 --> 00:01:35.222
So it was Ticketmaster, home Shopping Network, silver King Broadcasting, lycos, citysearch, usa Networks a bunch of these different companies all getting together around this idea of content creation and shopping and online and how those pieces were going to fit.

00:01:35.222 --> 00:01:41.983
So I did that and then moved back to Louisiana and started the agency in 2001.

00:01:41.983 --> 00:01:58.066
And so it's been a great 23 year ride and I get to do it with my husband every day, which some days is awesome and we work with midsize to large B2B companies, professional services, industrial manufacturing across the country.

00:01:59.368 --> 00:02:03.644
And you have a book and a podcast on the same topic, right?

00:02:03.884 --> 00:02:04.225
Exactly.

00:02:04.245 --> 00:02:13.927
Yep, michael and I wrote the book together, which is code, for Michael did all the work and I get all the glory, which I think is how it should be and then the podcast really started with me.

00:02:14.588 --> 00:02:21.187
Literally, I would read the blog and record it, which was like 2009.

00:02:21.187 --> 00:02:48.248
It was the early days of blogging and podcasting, and it was really retrospect pretty lame, but it allowed me to figure out some things, and one of the things I figured out was no one wanted to hear me read the blog to them like an audio book, without any talented voice, and so, during COVID, we turned it into a live one hour and we would just interview people on how they were making a pandemic pivot to save their business during that very scary 2020.

00:02:48.248 --> 00:02:59.007
And Michael produced it, and so then we evolved it into Michael would pop in every once in a while to basically fuss at me because I had done something that he thought was dumb and so I had to.

00:02:59.007 --> 00:03:06.110
He would, of course, correct me, and so then it was like well, if you're going to jump in, mr, I'm behind the curtain, then you're going to be on the front line.

00:03:06.110 --> 00:03:07.873
It's a lot easier to judge from the distance.

00:03:13.546 --> 00:03:15.998
So then we started doing it together and that has been the most fun.

00:03:15.998 --> 00:03:17.783
Yeah, I was going to ask did you just being married?

00:03:17.783 --> 00:03:18.967
Did you run out of normal things to argue about?

00:03:18.987 --> 00:03:21.014
So you just thought you'd argue about branding.

00:03:21.014 --> 00:03:21.938
Is that what happened?

00:03:21.938 --> 00:03:28.866
I will be quoting you at dinner tonight because that perfectly sums up the entire 25 years of our marriage and 23 years of our working together while raising four kids.

00:03:28.866 --> 00:03:37.736
Those items have not provided enough discourse, so we had to go and create new things to chat about.

00:03:38.360 --> 00:03:46.770
You've already made it through all the normal married arguments, so you needed to bring in some branding and marketing controversy.

00:03:46.770 --> 00:03:50.045
I get it, I get it and that is the whole premise behind he said.

00:03:50.086 --> 00:03:55.031
She said, because I look at it from a very strategic standpoint, how is this going to make money?

00:03:55.031 --> 00:03:56.096
What are we doing?

00:03:56.096 --> 00:03:58.503
That's strategically different than everybody else.

00:03:58.503 --> 00:04:00.789
He looks at it from a very creative standpoint.

00:04:00.789 --> 00:04:02.681
He's a writer, he's a designer.

00:04:02.681 --> 00:04:05.266
So it's like how is this going to look good?

00:04:05.266 --> 00:04:10.521
And we have to have any idea that we're going to put out for our clients has to make both of us happy.

00:04:11.283 --> 00:04:12.627
You know what this reminds me of is.

00:04:13.269 --> 00:04:40.225
It is a little bit of the men are from Mars, women are from Venus we think about things differently thing, and I worked for this one CEO and he wasn't wrong about this, but it was also super annoying is he liked to do website design, particularly to argue about the homepage, cause that's a favorite sport at most companies have been at is, let's argue about the homepage, where no one can actually be right and it's all just completely a matter of opinion.

00:04:40.848 --> 00:04:52.574
But one of his fun things about it was is that we would propose a new homepage design and the management team had to sign off on it, but all the people on the management team were men.

00:04:52.574 --> 00:05:09.187
So then he wanted to bring in lots of other people in the company, different age groups, men and women, because women thought about it differently and then so to have all these people just giving their feedback on the website before who had never designed a website.

00:05:09.187 --> 00:05:20.802
It was very interesting, but he did at one point which I thought was right is that people do respond to marketing differently if they're men or women.

00:05:20.802 --> 00:05:26.153
So I do think there's a good balance in having that joint perspective.

00:05:26.500 --> 00:05:29.286
I agree completely and, eric, I'd even take it one step further.

00:05:29.286 --> 00:05:40.221
If you think about the DISC personality assessment, for example, it breaks all humans into four quadrants of how we approach our decision-making, our lives.

00:05:40.221 --> 00:05:46.365
Some people may be really needing a lot of information to make decisions, whereas some are like trust of truth in there.

00:05:46.365 --> 00:06:09.348
When you layer on top of that marketing, all of a sudden it's like oh wait, okay, hold on.

00:06:09.348 --> 00:06:16.209
If I'm trying to appeal to the headline personality type, try to appeal to the D of the DISC assessment.

00:06:16.521 --> 00:06:19.966
That's what we would call a headline personality type, because they're going to skim the headlines.

00:06:19.966 --> 00:06:26.529
They might look at some bullet points or some bold pullout quotes, but they're not reading a lot of information.

00:06:26.529 --> 00:06:31.247
They're entrepreneurs, they're making quick decisions, they've got their foot on their gas and they're going.

00:06:31.247 --> 00:06:46.312
You contrast that with the C personality type and they are really going to evaluate and weigh every decision with the utmost care and detail, which puts them into analysis paralysis.

00:06:46.312 --> 00:06:54.629
We would call that body copy, because they need to read all the words and they need additional research and they need more facts and figures before they can commit to anything.

00:06:54.629 --> 00:07:00.610
So each of those DISC, each one of those, has a different marketing style.

00:07:00.610 --> 00:07:05.942
So I think, yeah, it's not just men and women, it's not just people in the company and outside of the company.

00:07:05.942 --> 00:07:07.807
You got to take it that one step further.

00:07:07.807 --> 00:07:13.732
For personality types of am I creating the materials that's going to make them feel like they're making the right choice?

00:07:15.961 --> 00:07:18.509
Is there a personality type for a gladiator in a suit?

00:07:18.509 --> 00:07:23.285
Am I G?

00:07:23.285 --> 00:07:24.947
I'm just submitting a new personality type.

00:07:24.947 --> 00:07:26.512
I'm sorry, I have lots of jokes today.

00:07:26.512 --> 00:07:30.487
They may not be the best jokes but I have jokes, but I do agree.

00:07:30.567 --> 00:07:32.492
I am a gladiator, are you kidding?

00:07:32.492 --> 00:07:34.204
I watch every Shonda Rhimes show.

00:07:34.204 --> 00:07:39.221
I'm all in on scandal so I can show up as a gladiator anytime, anywhere.

00:07:41.144 --> 00:07:41.584
Awesome.

00:07:41.584 --> 00:07:48.134
So let's hear a story about some of the best marketing that you've done, that you're the most proud of.

00:07:48.920 --> 00:07:54.413
One of the things that I could rattle off a list of companies we've worked with, work that we've done.

00:07:54.413 --> 00:08:01.021
The one thing, though, that I would bring is something that just recently happened that I am super proud of.

00:08:01.021 --> 00:08:19.497
So I combined a team of really smart, awesome experts in their craft, not just around marketing, but around sales, around leadership, training, around professional development, around team building and collectively, because the agency is great.

00:08:19.497 --> 00:08:22.043
The agency is humming along 23 years in.

00:08:22.043 --> 00:08:24.370
I think I probably slow them down more than anything.

00:08:24.370 --> 00:08:26.223
My job is to stay out of their way.

00:08:26.223 --> 00:08:30.961
So I've been doing a lot of consulting, and it's been helpful to our regular clients.

00:08:30.961 --> 00:08:41.229
So we put on this GrowthX conference two days really helping entrepreneurs, business owners and marketing directors be better at what they're doing.

00:08:41.229 --> 00:08:47.530
It's time to leave the business and really get some professional insight from five different perspectives at these different levels.

00:08:47.530 --> 00:08:48.113
It was awesome.

00:08:48.799 --> 00:08:51.907
So we're into this, and I'm talking about media buying.

00:08:51.907 --> 00:08:54.312
That's one of my early origin stories.

00:08:54.312 --> 00:09:11.013
I'm a licensed, certified media buyer, and back when the media we bought was TV, radio, newspaper billboards, the olden times last century and so I'm talking about how to make decisions, how to evaluate media packages, how to make sure you're getting a good return on your investment.

00:09:11.013 --> 00:09:18.003
One of the business owners in the back of the room raises their hand and says based on what you just said, I think I've made a horrible mistake.

00:09:18.003 --> 00:09:22.371
And I was like okay, share with the class, because it's about 25 30 people.

00:09:22.371 --> 00:09:28.991
And she said I spent $60,000 last year on tv ads with this one local tv affiliate.

00:09:28.991 --> 00:09:31.937
And I said tell me again who your target audience is.

00:09:31.937 --> 00:09:33.991
She goes like 25 to 45.

00:09:33.991 --> 00:09:38.647
I was like do you want me to tell you made a horrible disaster and wasted $60,000?

00:09:38.647 --> 00:09:41.511
And she said yes, and I was like you very much.

00:09:41.511 --> 00:09:45.359
Did you track your people who walk in the door?

00:09:45.359 --> 00:09:46.748
How many people came from that?

00:09:46.748 --> 00:09:50.167
She said three, and two of them came from the TV station where I bought the ads.

00:09:50.167 --> 00:09:53.976
I was like okay, and I said let's talk about how that could have been.

00:09:54.057 --> 00:10:13.538
So that evolved into us creating these things called BSU Reviews, where we now will go in and assess someone's current marketing, their website, their social media, their media spend their messaging, their collateral materials, everything and give back a report unbiased.

00:10:13.538 --> 00:10:15.394
I have no skin in that game of.

00:10:15.394 --> 00:10:16.519
These are all the things you're doing.

00:10:16.519 --> 00:10:17.905
Great, these are things you can do better.

00:10:17.905 --> 00:10:21.291
Somebody else in the room was like look at mine before I commit to this thing.

00:10:21.291 --> 00:10:27.066
They were about to spend $350,000 on an ad campaign.

00:10:27.066 --> 00:10:35.126
We gave them back, reached more people more often for 42 grand and I was like that's what you need.

00:10:35.126 --> 00:10:36.975
You need somebody who understands marketing.

00:10:36.975 --> 00:10:42.149
So to me that's the big win is being able to save somebody a lot of money.

00:10:42.149 --> 00:10:43.671
Last week it made me very happy.

00:10:45.432 --> 00:10:45.894
That's great.

00:10:45.894 --> 00:10:47.615
I think marketing is an investment.

00:10:47.615 --> 00:10:49.599
I always preach this.

00:10:49.599 --> 00:10:58.846
It's not spend, it's an investment.

00:10:58.846 --> 00:11:01.874
And so helping people do an assessment so that they can get the best return on their investment is a logical thing.

00:11:01.874 --> 00:11:26.678
But a lot of people they would talk to a financial planner or an investment expert before they would make a stock market investment or mutual fund investment, but a lot of times they don't talk to someone who's really an expert in marketing before they make a huge investment in marketing and it doesn't really logically make sense to me because I think they view it as a operational expense.

00:11:26.678 --> 00:11:28.323
I blame us.

00:11:28.784 --> 00:11:30.049
I blame our industry.

00:11:30.049 --> 00:11:30.933
It's our fault.

00:11:30.933 --> 00:11:33.884
We've done two things really badly.

00:11:33.884 --> 00:11:49.730
The first thing is that we have not held ourselves to the same high standard of other professionals lawyers, accountants, wealth managers, bankers, real estate agents you name any professional service.

00:11:49.730 --> 00:11:56.626
They all have an education, licensing and continuing education, set of requirements.

00:11:56.626 --> 00:11:58.770
Marketing bought Mac.

00:11:58.770 --> 00:12:00.094
Now I'm an expert.

00:12:00.094 --> 00:12:01.537
There's no rules.

00:12:01.537 --> 00:12:04.048
Anybody can call themselves an agency.

00:12:04.048 --> 00:12:06.226
Anybody can call themselves a marketer.

00:12:06.226 --> 00:12:16.557
We did a horrible job as an industry to build in a code of conduct and a set of best practice standards and we are punished for that now.

00:12:16.557 --> 00:12:17.400
So that's on us.

00:12:17.802 --> 00:12:29.746
The second thing that I think we've done to screw this up for ourselves is that by not having this licensing process and establishing terminology like you can't call yourself a realtor unless you've taken a certain set of tests.

00:12:29.746 --> 00:12:33.664
You can be a real estate agent, but to get to that next level it's another set of tests.

00:12:33.664 --> 00:12:34.586
We didn't do that.

00:12:34.586 --> 00:12:52.407
So companies go out and hire marketers who aren't trained, don't know what they're doing, waste a ton of money, and now they're all gun shy.

00:12:52.407 --> 00:12:55.434
So they do think of it as an expense because they've wasted a ton of money and not gotten a return on that investment for it.

00:12:55.455 --> 00:13:03.010
I am always amazed when a marketer, like an agency, quote unquote says to a client so what do you want me to do?

00:13:03.010 --> 00:13:05.715
And I'm thinking, agency, quote unquote says to a client so what do you want me to do?

00:13:05.715 --> 00:13:09.679
And I'm thinking, no, you wouldn't go to a doctor and expect the doctor to say so, what test do you want me to run?

00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:16.126
What medicine do you want me to prescribe?

00:13:16.126 --> 00:13:16.828
What should we do today?

00:13:16.828 --> 00:13:18.352
No, the expert in the room should be in charge and leading.

00:13:18.352 --> 00:13:21.005
And so those are the two ways that I think we've screwed this up ourselves.

00:13:23.068 --> 00:13:23.811
I think that makes sense.

00:13:23.811 --> 00:13:27.636
There's no Series 7 license to be a marketing broker.

00:13:27.636 --> 00:13:29.100
Maybe there should be.

00:13:29.705 --> 00:14:10.254
The one thing that strikes me is that for most of the last 20 years I've been a CMO on the venture capital and private equity backed company side, and when they invested in SaaS companies in particular, this is an interesting return on investment story is they put a trillion dollars of capital over the last 15 years in the SaaS companies, so they developed probably what I think is the most advanced way of thinking about marketing return on investment and they created this whole SaaS metrics way of evaluating.

00:14:10.294 --> 00:14:30.038
That has metrics like customer acquisition costs, which is the fully loaded cost of sales and marketing, and customer acquisition costs compared to lifetime value of the customer, and they have 20 of these different terms that they've coined and formulas for SaaS companies and their operating metrics.

00:14:30.038 --> 00:15:07.346
If they're best in class and, in fairness, saas companies generally over the last 15 years have been some of the most profitable companies because they came up with this measurement system and they figured out some common nomenclature across the 10,000 SaaS companies out there about how to talk about it, and I think actually what I've seen is some of that is starting to permeate more broadly through B2B, but not completely yet, because a lot of companies still just think about things as but we'll just take 8% of our revenue and spend it on marketing and I'm just like, no, that's not the way you do it.

00:15:08.599 --> 00:15:15.292
No, you make a great point, and I'm thinking about a company we worked with two years ago who was heavy entrenched in oil and gas.

00:15:15.292 --> 00:15:19.982
That had been their main industry the entire 20 years of their company.

00:15:19.982 --> 00:15:25.125
They built themselves up to a solid 20, 25, $30 million entity.

00:15:25.125 --> 00:15:26.028
They were doing great.

00:15:26.028 --> 00:15:27.634
Everything's humming along quite nicely.

00:15:27.634 --> 00:15:36.149
They now need to transition into work around offshore wind farms because they see that's where the industry is heading.

00:15:36.149 --> 00:15:55.918
Now we have to do what we call change the conversation and get them out of this heavily entrenched O&G portfolio of clients and marketing materials and into a very green renewable wind solar, which was into their line of talent, but very different target audience, very different messaging.

00:15:55.918 --> 00:15:56.841
So we did.

00:15:56.841 --> 00:16:15.921
The outcome is that nine months later, not only are they making more money, because now they have really been able to change the conversation to this, but now they're being acquired for 8X what they were originally valued at six months before they hired us, because we've been able to elevate them.

00:16:16.414 --> 00:16:22.158
So I know that we don't always look at it or at least the industry doesn't always look at it for the real value.

00:16:22.158 --> 00:16:25.226
But it goes beyond just the immediate return on investment.

00:16:25.226 --> 00:16:29.528
There's a long-term ROI here that has to be factored in.

00:16:29.528 --> 00:16:34.823
What I love about what you're saying about the SaaS companies is the way they're able to measure.

00:16:34.823 --> 00:16:35.886
It is so clear.

00:16:35.886 --> 00:16:52.461
Like I, I love our clients that have a very direct market transaction, conversion income like straight line, and so when we take that same philosophy, we can apply it to a lot of different industries because now the tracking is so much better.

00:16:52.461 --> 00:16:58.559
When we ran TV ads and radio ads back in the day, maybe people saw it, maybe they did something about it.

00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:04.381
Now I know when they see it, I know when they click on it, I know when they convert, I know it works and doesn't work.

00:17:05.756 --> 00:17:18.021
One of the things is that it is possible to lose money on marketing and not have a good return on investment, just like it's very possible to lose money in the stock market to lose money on real estate.

00:17:18.021 --> 00:17:23.886
Almost anything that you invest in that it can have a high rate of return has an equal high rate of risk.

00:17:23.886 --> 00:17:31.346
And, as we're in a more challenging economy now, some of the SaaS metrics for some of the companies are a real head scratcher.

00:17:31.346 --> 00:17:35.143
Some of them are struggling with payback cycles.

00:17:35.143 --> 00:17:40.368
The sales and marketing for every customer they win takes five years to make it back.

00:17:40.368 --> 00:17:44.020
So now they're having to reevaluate what are the different things we should do.

00:17:44.101 --> 00:18:07.941
What we were doing in the past doesn't work anymore, and so I think that's actually a good thing, because, as I was looking at your agency's site, there was a list of, I believe, over 30 different things that you can help clients with, which is amazing, and for my podcast, I have a list of over 200 topics that I talk to guests about broadly in terms of marketing.

00:18:07.941 --> 00:18:10.507
So marketing is a very broad area.

00:18:10.507 --> 00:18:19.065
When people just say, invest in marketing, there's so many things that you can invest in, so many things that you could do To the point of your earlier story.

00:18:19.065 --> 00:18:24.041
I think a big question is what should you not do and what should you do?

00:18:24.041 --> 00:18:27.855
So is that one of the main things that you help your clients figure out?

00:18:28.998 --> 00:18:30.221
It's the very first thing.

00:18:30.221 --> 00:18:37.061
So when the agency Brand Russo works with medium to large size companies, they typically have an in-house team.

00:18:37.061 --> 00:18:38.886
They're doing things already.

00:18:38.886 --> 00:18:49.980
We come in with new perspective, and so we conduct our razor branding assessment, where we look at it through a couple of different sets of eyes.

00:18:49.980 --> 00:18:52.859
Inside out, what does your internal team think?

00:18:52.859 --> 00:18:54.144
How do they feel?

00:18:54.144 --> 00:18:56.403
They know stuff that no one else knows.

00:18:56.403 --> 00:18:57.878
So we got to get that out of them.

00:18:57.878 --> 00:19:02.721
Service is going to know things, sales is going to know things, customer service is going to know things.

00:19:02.721 --> 00:19:04.025
Accounting is going to know something.

00:19:04.025 --> 00:19:10.214
So everybody's got some valuable knowledge, but they're so siloed that has not been shared enough yet.

00:19:10.214 --> 00:19:11.236
So good, we can pull that out.

00:19:11.777 --> 00:19:13.118
We're going to talk to the current customers.

00:19:13.118 --> 00:19:18.405
We really need to understand why they chose you, because they had other options.

00:19:18.405 --> 00:19:19.946
So what was the hook?

00:19:19.946 --> 00:19:25.641
What made them see you the right way and feel seen by you to make that commitment?

00:19:25.641 --> 00:19:29.156
Then we've got to look at people who should be customers but aren't.

00:19:29.156 --> 00:19:29.978
Why not?

00:19:29.978 --> 00:19:31.642
Who are they using instead?

00:19:31.642 --> 00:19:34.928
What has been the deciding factor for them?

00:19:34.928 --> 00:19:36.270
Is it awareness?

00:19:36.270 --> 00:19:40.058
Is it a misperception about what you do and how you do it?

00:19:40.058 --> 00:19:43.346
Is it a lack of value, so they're caught up on price.

00:19:43.346 --> 00:19:44.717
What's the missing piece there?

00:19:45.358 --> 00:19:49.477
The second thing we look at is promise why you, what's your point of differentiation?

00:19:49.477 --> 00:19:53.856
And that's going to be different for different target audiences, so we have to take that into consideration.

00:19:53.856 --> 00:19:56.945
The third we call connection, and this is the messaging.

00:19:56.945 --> 00:20:04.943
This is where we stop letting you just talk about yourself, because that only matters to you and, like your mom, instead you got to talk to them about them.

00:20:04.943 --> 00:20:09.221
We've got to really make sure that they're the hero of the story and you're the guide with a solution.

00:20:09.994 --> 00:20:12.760
And then, last but not least, where should those messages be going?

00:20:12.760 --> 00:20:22.486
So we're looking at the marketing you've been doing from a very tactical standpoint, to what has been happening and what's working and not working.

00:20:22.486 --> 00:20:27.060
And then what should the tactics be moving forward, based on each of those target audiences, so that they see the message enough times?

00:20:27.060 --> 00:20:32.480
You're talking about right now average of 8,000 ads a day that we see.

00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:38.791
There's no way, no way anybody can take all that in.

00:20:38.791 --> 00:20:42.779
So we've built these filters to block it all out uniformly.

00:20:42.779 --> 00:20:48.279
So by blocking it all out, we are able to make sure we don't see anything that doesn't pertain to us.

00:20:48.279 --> 00:20:57.557
So your message has to be so targeted and so specific that the target audience feels seen and feels heard and feels like you're the right one for them.

00:21:00.083 --> 00:21:02.107
Yeah, there's a lot of noise out there these days.

00:21:02.107 --> 00:21:06.482
I think how to stand out in that is the real key.

00:21:06.482 --> 00:21:13.622
So, given we are where we are, we live in very interesting times here in 2024,.

00:21:13.622 --> 00:21:25.523
What is the best advice that you have for marketers and business leaders who want to win in marketing in 2024?

00:21:26.506 --> 00:21:39.540
Get an outside third-party perspective so that you can be more strategic and proactive and less reactive and trying to do the things that you used to do, because what got you here won't get you there.

00:21:40.742 --> 00:21:41.945
All right, great advice.

00:21:41.945 --> 00:21:48.394
Thank you so much, jackie, for being on the show, for sharing your stories, sharing your insights and your advice.

00:21:48.394 --> 00:21:58.329
I'm going to link to your website, your podcast and your book in the show notes so everyone can go check those out if they want to learn more and get in touch.

00:21:58.329 --> 00:21:59.915
We appreciate you being on the show.