A Marketer's Blueprint for 50 Years of Career Success with Intention and Integrity

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Welcome to today's episode.

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Our guest today is Scott Jeffrey Miller.

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He is a seven-time author, a keynote speaker, a podcaster.

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He's been a chief marketing officer.

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Welcome to the show.

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Eric.

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Thanks man.

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Thank you for the spotlight and the platform.

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Absolutely so.

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Why don't we start with you giving us just a little bit of context beyond what I just shared about who you are and what?

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you do.

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Sure, I live in Salt Lake City with my wife, stephanie, and our three young sons that are 10, 12, and 14.

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Don't do that.

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Lesson number one don't have three boys in five years when you're 41 years old.

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I was a parent late to the game, born and raised in Central Florida, worked for the Walt Disney Company for four years and they invited me to leave, which is how my career started.

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And then so where does a single Catholic boy from Orlando move?

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Eric, of course, to Provo, utah, where all the single Catholics were 30 years ago.

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I'm kidding, there wasn't a single Catholic in all of Utah 30 years ago.

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But Dr Stephen R Covey, of course, is a seminal author of the book the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People he came calling.

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I joined the Franklin Covey Company, had an amazing 30-year ride there, 10 years as their CMO, retired from the firm, financially not so much, but just from a cultural standpoint.

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30 years, a lot of years, retired three years ago in good standing.

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I still host for franklin cubby what is the world's largest weekly leadership podcast on leadership with scott miller.

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I do some consulting and advising for them.

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I'm an author podcaster, as you said in my day job is I'm actually an agent.

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I'm a literary speaking and talent agent.

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I own a large literary agency.

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So anybody looking to blow out their speaking business or literary business, I'm your guy.

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So it's called Gray Miller, I'm the Miller in it and life is good.

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Honor to be here today Fantastic, and one of the things I love about your podcast is that on leadership, is you've done something north of 360 episodes?

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I think you're right.

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365, something like that, every Tuesday and Friday without fail.

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Awesome.

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We've just passed 100 here, so three times what we've done is definitely a lot of commitment, so congratulations on that.

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And I received your latest book, career, on Course, and I want to talk about that a little bit today.

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Thanks, fantastic book.

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Before we get to that, I just wanted to know if you could talk about, since it's a marketing show and our audience is marketers one of your books was called Marketing Mess right.

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Indeed Marketing Mess to Brand Success.

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And one of the favorite parts of that book that made me laugh out loud is a name is not a lead.

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Yes, isn't that true, I'd forgotten.

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I wrote that yeah.

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Want me to riff on that?

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Or?

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you want to riff on that?

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Oh, please, I was going to.

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My question was could you share a minute about that book, why you wrote it and what it's about, so people can check it out?

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Yeah, the first book I wrote was actually called Management Mess to Leadership Success 30 Challenges to Become the Leader you Would Follow, and after having been an executive leader in a world's most trusted leadership firm, I wanted to write a book that was really about how tough leadership was, and so Management Mess did extremely well.

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And then so I wrote a second book in the Mess to Success series called Marketing Mess to Brand Success, and it really was a highlight of all the things that I'd seen go wrong or led that went wrong, and it wasn't a book of just confessing sins, it was just here's 30 challenges I think marketers make.

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One of them was this idea that a name isn't a lead, and I think it came from my insight.

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I came into the CMO position after 20 years as a sales leader like literally 70 quarters of meeting or missing top line revenue or EBITDA right.

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I was a sales contributor and a sales vice president.

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It's probably why I was so effective as a CMO because I really understood the business of the business.

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I understood the driving engine behind the company.

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I was a creative guy at a marketing background, but I understood without revenue, there is nothing until someone sells something.

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So we would go to these trade shows and I'd have this feeling so very competent marketing people and they would come back at the end of the hour and say, my gosh, we scanned 175 badges.

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And I'm thinking, and your point is because if you think the salesperson back in Indianapolis is going to follow up on 18 people whose badge you scanned, she's going to call two of them and when they don't return their phone call, she's going to not follow up on the next 16 and she's going to think we're idiots.

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And so a name is not a lead.

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A lead is someone you've had a great conversation with, you've built a relationship with.

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They understand your value proposition, they have a need, they have a problem.

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You speak the same language, they've agreed to a meeting.

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You've set a time and a date for a follow-up phone call with an agenda.

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I get that this is common knowledge, but I've spent a lot of years in the marketing division really helping the marketing people speak the language of sales, understand what a salesperson needs, how valuable their time is, what a commissioned job looks like, that hey, a name can be put into a nurture cycle, right, but that's different than a qualified lead that really warrants someone's time, energy or money to be followed up with.

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Absolutely.

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I think it's a great point, put in a very concise and fun way, so I encourage everyone to check that book out.

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Why don't you start off by sharing a story with us about some of the best marketing that you've done, that you're the most proud of?

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I had the privilege of working for this massive brand right, the Franklin Covey Company, and I think in our organization we made the fatal mistake that a lot of companies did, which was using our language versus the client's language, and so one of the successes that I think triumphed with was really teaching our company how to speak the language that our clients use, right.

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We might've used the word productivity when they called it leadership, they might've called it retention and we called it engagement.

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So we really fundamentally changed all the language on our websites, our emails, our brochures, our programs, our webcasts to really understand what is the problem our clients are facing, Because we were often a solution chasing a problem, but not clients didn't always speak like we did.

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We were wonky intellectual leadership consultants when people had much more simple problems, so we spent a lot of time understanding the exact circumstance that people were in.

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What is the problem?

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What words do they use to describe it?

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Why is it a problem?

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And move out of our own arrogant Eric mindset around.

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We invented the term, so you'll call it the way we call it, and a lot of times we will be missing clients in the dark because we were messaging the wrong thing to the right solution.

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So we became obsessed with what did the customer call it?

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What is their pain point?

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What words do they use?

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And I tell you, the closer we got to the client situation, the client circumstance, the more we started to win deals.

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And I think it took us, eric, to check our ego right Is to realize that, yes, yes, we're right, yes, it should be called this, yes, the pedagogy of leadership or productivity should refer to it this way, way.

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But the more we checked our ego and really understood, stood to circumstance.

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Clients were in and spoke their language.

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Sales exponentiated, trying to fit them in our world.

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We had to fit in their world.

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It's what Donald Millard talks about.

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If the client can't see themselves in your journey, then I can do business with you.

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You have to fit into the client's journey.

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You have to fit in their world, into their language, and I think that's a triumph that Franklin Covey overcame after decades of making people fit into our world.

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So because it took a while, I'm assuming it wasn't easy.

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It wasn't a walk in the park.

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What was hard about doing that?

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It was a fundamental culture shift.

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I mean, here's how it happened as the chief marketing officer, the company had hired a new marketing director over a set of leadership solutions, like leadership training, and I brought her into the team one day.

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She actually didn't report to my team, it was like a cross-functional person.

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She was competent, it was misaligned and we were getting ready to launch a whole new product worldwide.

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Right, finkler Coffey is a global public company and I brought her to the meeting and was teaching her the value proposition.

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She would stop and she, by the way, she was a very competent marketing person and she would say now, what is that word you're using?

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And I would say and she says I've never even heard that word before.

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What does that mean?

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And so it was an internal new hire.

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That really pushed on me, because even I had become so steeped in the language in this company even I didn't know when I was speaking, like this code talk.

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So it was hard.

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I had to change the way I spoke about our solution so that I was the model.

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Right, dr Covey said be a light, not a judge, be a model, not a critic.

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So I had to change my vocabulary, my behaviors, I had to change my examples.

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Once the rest of the team saw Scott do it, then everybody else started to do it, because the leader is the model.

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But it was very difficult to overcome people's deeply inculcated belief systems.

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I'll use the word again, pedagogy, which is a strange word, but we were an intellectual property company so we had an academic view of things and so it took a wholesale re-educating all of us to say, hey, listen, we may think we're using the right terms and the right language, the right marketing messaging, but it's not resonating with clients.

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We got to get out there.

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We got to get out of our office and go meet with clients and really figure out what are the words and the terms and the problems that they're using.

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And we need to fundamentally reorient our market approach.

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It required us to check our egos.

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It required us to not be right but do what was right for the coins, right for sales, right for the pipeline.

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And I think when people realized that oftentimes we were there to be right as opposed to get it right, that was our problem and we changed our paradigm.

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I don't want to be right, I just want to get it right.

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I want to actually hit the corner, ring the bell and serve the client, I had to stop.

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Christ's goal was up, go up.

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That's when things fundamentally changed.

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It was that mindset shift from being right to doing right, and when you did this and you said it took time when you did this and you said it took time when you did it over time, there was a significant impact to having the right terms of art, the right message.

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Certainly, and stock went from $12 to $52.

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I think we onboarded sales staff more effectively.

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We resonated with clients, referred us in Listen.

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The company was always a very robust company.

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Just the market was changing, the buyer was changing, the demographic was changing.

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Quite frankly, we were a Utah company that was masquerading as a global company.

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Right, we had a big footprint.

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Franklin Covey's brain was always much bigger than its revenue.

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This was a $200 million company right at the time, and so I think we had to check our ego on a lot of things and listen to our clients.

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It sounds so cliche and so simple.

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It's the first chapter of marketing mess is?

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It's the client?

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Stupid, I think.

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So few of us are really client focused when most of us talk about, oh yeah, the client comes first.

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Really, look at your processes and your systems.

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Look at the number of times in meetings you talk about your clients versus you talk about your strategy and your website and your examples.

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The best companies in the world have something in common they truly are fiercely obsessed with their clients and everything is oriented toward their success.

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Easier said than done easier said than done.

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100 agree and I've seen this play out in company after company where a messaging in a company is really hard sometimes because the leadership the CMO in your story, but broadly the leadership of the whole company they have to embrace it, they have to live the message for it to work right.

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I've used this word many times now.

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You have to have an ego enema.

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You have to check your ego.

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You have to say hey, so what would Tina over at Comrade call it?

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How would Tim at Safeway Solutions refer to that and then call up Tim.

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Hey, Tim, what's this problem like?

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How does it manifest, what are the behaviors, what's the impact?

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And you have to check your ego and recognize that you may not have the right solution.

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I had so many examples in my own company of creating a book or creating a course that I was passionate about, but it wasn't what the marketplace was passionate about, and I was forcing myself on clients when they needed something else.

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And so I think sometimes it takes a fair number of setbacks and failures to be able to be mature enough, reflective enough, introspective enough, self-aware to recognize when are you really pressing and pushing your creativity and your own ego against what the market really needs.

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I think there's great wisdom in that balance between what is it you're uniquely competent in and passionate about and genius, and what does the client need and what do they call it and how do they buy it and how do they implement it and how do they fund it.

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There's that sort of just beautiful nexus between all of that.

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That's a delicate process.

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It's an art, not a science.

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What's common amongst all of those is having leaders and marketers that check their ego and become better listeners, really great absorbers, and they come back and say we got this and this wrong.

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We're right on this.

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Let's retool and reinvent and retest.

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Nothing genius there other than lots of reps from lots of mistakes and taking a stock to $52 from.

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I think it was at its lowest was 80 cents.

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So we did a pretty good job.

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That's fantastic.

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I think the key is fall down seven times and get up eight times right One of the things in preparing for our episode here that I took a look at.

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I'm very passionate about personal branding for business leaders, building their professional brand, and I have to say, when I looked at your website scottjeffreymillercom, I have to say I think it's one of the best examples of a personal brand website that I've seen because of the way you blended together your keynote speaking expertise, being a podcaster, being an author, being a guest on 200 other people's podcasts, writing articles for all the publications you have.

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Can you just talk a little bit about what you've done to build your personal brand and why you decided to invest the time and effort to do that?

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I think this topic runs the risk of sounding like ho-hum, because personal branding is talked about a lot.

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But, to your point, everyone has a brand.

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I think most of them have come about accidentally, haphazardly, and it's the rare brands that stick out because it's done intentionally, deliberately.

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My brand, my personal brand, is to be as authentic and transparent and vulnerable and real as possible.

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Right, I like white Mercedes, I like to drink champagne, I feel better in a Mercedes than I do in a Kia, and I talk about it, and some people hate me for it and others think that's quite refreshing.

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I don't like parenting.

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I love my three sons, but the fact is I actually hate parenting.

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It's super stressful, and so I just try, without being irresponsible, I try to just be truthful.

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I know not everyone is going to like me.

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I know lots of people dislike me and so I can't be everything to everyone.

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What I am trying to be as a guy that just tells you hey, here's who I am, here's what I like, here's what I think, here's how I'm changing my mind, here's where I'm evolving and if my passion around leadership and culture and sales and marketing and mentoring and careers matches your passion and you think some of the things that I've learned and done along the way can help you.

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I'm your guy, and if I'm not, move on, there's 8 billion others.

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So I have been careful not to create thick skin, but rather transparent, translucent skin.

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Stuff comes in, stuff comes out.

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Reddit is alive because of me.

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Glass door thrives because of me, and my son and I go out every sunday for a half an hour and look at all the comments on youtube about how I should take my life.

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I'm a.

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I'm a scourge of society.

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How can I possibly have a podcast and we laugh about them when we go through them and just laugh and say, yeah, that's true, that's mean, that's probably true.

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I'm a stutterer, by the way, I have a podcast and we laugh about them and we go through them and just laugh and say, yeah, that's true, that's mean, that's probably true.

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I'm a stutterer.

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By the way, I have a pretty debilitating speech impediment and so people are always commenting on my stutter and I talk about it quite freely.

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I've been to speech pathology for years, so I talk about it.

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My personal brand is as a Catholic, I try not to make it my confessional is as a Catholic, I try not to make it my confessional.

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But I'm very comfortable kind of co-opping people before they try to weaponize something against me, not by licensing bad behavior, not by laughing it off, but just by talking freely about my attention span, talking about my stutter, talking about I'm super multi-passionate, and sometimes that gets me in trouble because I take on too much At the talking about I'm super multi-passionate and sometimes that gets me in trouble because I take on too much.

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But at the same time I'm pretty good at making and keeping commitments.

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I'm very loyal.

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I'm not trying to be anybody, I'm not.

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I'm trying to figure out who I am in real time in the spotlight, and I think enough people can relate to that that it's built a brand for me.

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I think obviously the success is there for people who go look at your website.

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I'll take care of the flip side of that also.

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Sure, because I know you like to hear the successes, as I'm trying to figure out in real time.

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Some people know me as the guy that's the podcaster, some know me as the CMO, some know me as the guy that wrote books on careers or on marketing or on mentorship.

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And if you look at the most successful people, if you think about Seth Godin, you think about marketing.

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Liz Wiseman, leadership.

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Susan Cain, introversion.

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Kim Scott, radical conversations right, most of the people that are super successful.

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Donald Miller, storytelling.

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Nancy Duarte right, the hero's journey.

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My brand, I think, has been a little bit confusing because I'm so multi-passionate.

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I write and speak and create about things that I'm interested in and, quite frankly, it changes year to year.

00:19:43.871 --> 00:19:50.086
And so I think if there's any lesson to learn from my own brand is to be thoughtful around.

00:19:50.086 --> 00:19:51.048
Where's your flywheel?

00:19:51.048 --> 00:19:55.944
Because it's hard to be successful when you're passionate and an expert on eight things.

00:19:55.944 --> 00:19:56.907
That's just not true.

00:19:56.907 --> 00:20:02.803
So, as I advise your listeners and viewers, think really intentionally.

00:20:02.803 --> 00:20:15.102
What kind of brand are you trying to cultivate and then go all in on that and, with enough reps and habits and engagements and encounters that will become your brand.

00:20:15.102 --> 00:20:16.886
It's hard to spread them across eight or 10 things.

00:20:18.134 --> 00:20:18.615
I agree with that.

00:20:18.615 --> 00:20:20.159
That's good advice.

00:20:20.159 --> 00:20:27.846
I also like, though, how you try a lot of different things and some things work really great and some things don't, and that's just the fact of life, right?

00:20:27.846 --> 00:20:28.777
It's very true.

00:20:29.076 --> 00:20:29.679
Yeah, it's very true.

00:20:29.679 --> 00:20:31.945
Yeah, I bruise hard and heal fast.

00:20:32.458 --> 00:20:33.493
That's a good way to live life.

00:20:33.493 --> 00:20:40.666
So let's talk a little bit about your most recent book, because you sent me an advanced copy.

00:20:40.666 --> 00:20:42.089
I read it, I loved it.

00:20:42.089 --> 00:20:47.882
I'm going to give it five stars and I encourage everyone else to get a copy of it and read it.

00:20:47.882 --> 00:20:56.050
I want to talk about it a little bit, but can you maybe share a little bit about why you wrote the book Career on Course.

00:21:00.914 --> 00:21:04.280
Sure, the book is called Career on Course 10 Strategies to Take your Career from Accidental to Intentional.

00:21:04.280 --> 00:21:13.682
And I just think after 40 years of being in business literally 40 years now I saw so many careers that were just meandering and wandering.

00:21:13.682 --> 00:21:21.307
People running from something versus deliberately running to something, people being very opportunistic and short-term in their thinking.

00:21:21.307 --> 00:21:25.203
When you think about it now, the average career span is 18.

00:21:25.203 --> 00:21:28.663
Do the math You're going to work from 21 to 71.

00:21:28.663 --> 00:21:31.436
Look at the Social Security Trust Fund You're going to work from 21 to 71.

00:21:31.436 --> 00:21:32.999
Look at the Social Security Trust Fund You're going to work 50 years.

00:21:32.999 --> 00:21:43.378
So if your average career is 18 months, you're going to have 26 jobs, 26 companies, 26 bosses, 26 cultures.

00:21:43.378 --> 00:21:45.300
Good grief, no, thank you.

00:21:45.300 --> 00:21:47.364
26, 28, 32.

00:21:47.364 --> 00:21:52.490
And so I wanted people just to be a little more deliberate around.

00:21:52.490 --> 00:21:54.458
What are your professional values?

00:21:54.458 --> 00:21:55.480
What do you value?

00:21:55.480 --> 00:21:56.402
What do you want?

00:21:56.402 --> 00:21:57.705
What are you passionate about?

00:21:57.705 --> 00:21:59.698
What are you great out at?

00:21:59.698 --> 00:22:01.163
How can you monetize that?

00:22:01.163 --> 00:22:03.589
How can you take control of your career?

00:22:04.532 --> 00:22:05.895
Here's why I really wrote the book, eric.

00:22:05.895 --> 00:22:22.287
I was in a meeting once where someone came in and she said quite offensively but accurately you're never in the room when your career is decided for you, and I thought that is so gross and so insightful.

00:22:22.287 --> 00:22:30.940
Have a plan or become part of someone else's plan, act or be acted upon All those cliches and adages are so accurate when it comes to our career.

00:22:30.940 --> 00:22:40.459
So my book is really about how do you take control of your career, how do you take command of your career?

00:22:40.459 --> 00:22:44.346
Lead your leader, have a multi-decade career plan.

00:22:44.988 --> 00:22:46.717
Most people think about what's next.

00:22:46.717 --> 00:23:04.037
They don't think about what's after, what's next, and so the crux of the book is thinking about your career in terms of a multi-decade strategy, building all the talents and skills you need and never being at the whim of someone else's budget or market or cost-cutting initiative.

00:23:04.037 --> 00:23:06.462
Of course there's going to be layoffs.

00:23:06.462 --> 00:23:07.605
Of course there are terminations.

00:23:07.605 --> 00:23:09.618
Of course there are mergers and there's downsizing.

00:23:09.618 --> 00:23:10.741
Of course there are recessions.

00:23:10.741 --> 00:23:12.025
They're like clockwork.

00:23:12.025 --> 00:23:12.767
Do the math.

00:23:12.767 --> 00:23:14.599
You can read the cyclical aspect of it.

00:23:14.599 --> 00:23:19.256
But I wanted people to take more intentional control over their careers.

00:23:22.301 --> 00:23:23.304
I think it's a great book.

00:23:23.304 --> 00:23:25.788
I love the 10 strategies in the book.

00:23:25.788 --> 00:23:30.144
There's three things in particular that I wanted to ask you about.

00:23:30.144 --> 00:23:39.681
I'll say the three things up front and then ask a question about each is I think the defining your values piece, which is at the very front, is really important.

00:23:39.681 --> 00:23:44.821
I think you had the chapter on personal branding We've talked a little bit about that and you had a chapter on networking.

00:23:44.821 --> 00:23:48.739
So I had a couple of questions about each of these three topics in the book.

00:23:48.739 --> 00:23:56.797
The one thing I want to say about the whole book in general is this is a book I wish I had when I was 22 and I graduated from college thank you.

00:23:56.817 --> 00:24:06.800
If I knew now, when I'm 50, if I knew that when I was 22, it would have been an entirely different career so I.

00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:15.907
I thank you for writing this book because I think if people read it now, when they're earlier in their career, it can be really helpful to doing the things that you just talked about.

00:24:15.907 --> 00:24:50.482
But at the beginning of my career, I thought about the first section of the book, where you talked about defining your personal values and your professional values, and you did something that I haven't seen many books do, which is you said finish this, don't read the rest of the book until you do, and if you don't come back to finish the rest of the book, that's a risk I'm willing to take, because this is the predecessor for everything, and I don't know that at the beginning of their career, people really take stock of what are my personal and professional values.

00:24:50.482 --> 00:25:00.647
And I think it is a critical threshold, like you pointed out, because every company I've worked for has had different cultural values.

00:25:00.647 --> 00:25:04.542
Right, I'm conflicting, right, but almost all of them slightly different.

00:25:04.542 --> 00:25:11.942
There's a little overlap that are the same but very different approaches in almost every company that I've worked at.

00:25:11.942 --> 00:25:16.606
I've worked at 10 large companies and they all just had a different way of thinking about it.

00:25:16.894 --> 00:25:21.974
And one of the things that I think back to at the beginning of my career is I was in the Boy Scouts.

00:25:21.974 --> 00:25:31.641
I was an Eagle Scout and the great thing that came from that was the Boy Scouts gave me that as an Eagle Scout I got that.

00:25:31.641 --> 00:25:50.383
So there's the Scout oath is I'm minor, I'll do my best to do my duty to God in my country to obey the Scout law, to help other people at all times, to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight and then by incorporation, the Scout law is, a Scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent.

00:25:50.383 --> 00:25:54.211
Loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent.

00:25:54.250 --> 00:25:59.728
And I would often add hungry, because I'm always hungry, I would add overwhelmed but keep going.

00:26:04.174 --> 00:26:05.682
But those things, 30 years later for me, are still really ingrained in me.

00:26:05.682 --> 00:26:10.816
And those were a lot of the values because I didn't have this book, I didn't have anything else to say what those should be and those served me pretty well.

00:26:10.816 --> 00:26:27.265
They weren't necessarily as ideal as some of the ones that you laid out in the book, but I think if people have a good foundation for who they are, then they can make a choice of which companies they want to work for, what cultures they want to be a part of, and some of them, I think.

00:26:27.265 --> 00:26:37.371
My question that I was getting to with this long windup is there's a conflict sometimes, because sometimes what your personal and your professional values stand for don't mesh with the company's.

00:26:37.371 --> 00:26:42.573
And you mentioned that conflict but you didn't go really deep into that in the book.

00:26:47.061 --> 00:26:50.011
So I was going to ask you what do you do when that happens?

00:26:50.011 --> 00:26:50.894
Let's set a foundation.

00:26:50.894 --> 00:26:55.446
First of all, I don't think 99% of our listening audience today has actually written down their personal values.

00:26:55.446 --> 00:26:57.915
They may have think something up at a cocktail party.

00:26:57.915 --> 00:27:01.825
That sounds great freedom, liberty, independence, privacy.

00:27:01.825 --> 00:27:07.507
But first of all, you need to write down your personal values and then live your life in accordance with them.

00:27:07.507 --> 00:27:17.970
Second, I think 100% of your listening audience has it written down their professional values and, by the way, when you write these down, you should not care what anyone thinks about them.

00:27:17.970 --> 00:27:22.346
Do not write them down because they'll sound great at a retreat.

00:27:23.276 --> 00:27:25.462
Write down your personal professional values.

00:27:25.462 --> 00:27:26.144
They are separate.

00:27:26.144 --> 00:27:29.806
My number one professional value maximize my income.

00:27:29.806 --> 00:27:31.296
I don't work because I'm bored.

00:27:31.296 --> 00:27:36.157
I work because I have three boys who want to go to college and apparently they may need to go to the hospital occasionally.

00:27:36.157 --> 00:27:40.530
I work for money period, not only, but primarily.

00:27:40.530 --> 00:27:45.743
My second professional value is to work with a brand that I trust and that I'm proud of.

00:27:45.743 --> 00:27:59.705
Could have made a lot more money working for companies I wasn't proud of, but it wasn't my only value, and so once you have your personal and professional values codified, then you can determine when they are in conflict, because they will be.

00:28:00.428 --> 00:28:00.750
It may be.

00:28:00.750 --> 00:28:12.263
Your number one personal value is family, but your number one professional value is maximize your income and you're in sales, but you want to be near your aging grandparents and your territory is four states away.

00:28:12.263 --> 00:28:15.615
You probably can't maximize your sales if you aren't in your territory.

00:28:15.615 --> 00:28:21.578
It's okay, but you can't know when they are in alignment and when they're in conflict until you write them down.

00:28:21.578 --> 00:28:31.018
Now your question was when they are in conflict with your companies and your employers, how would you know unless you've written down your professional values?

00:28:31.018 --> 00:28:38.721
If your number one professional value is maximize your income and you're working for a nonprofit, you're probably not going to be fulfilled.

00:28:38.721 --> 00:28:52.025
If your number one professional value is equity or stock options or international travel and you're working for the Montana Cancer Society, you're probably not going to be fulfilled.

00:28:53.494 --> 00:29:12.183
And so that's the fundamental answer to your question is first, you have to do the work of contemplating and cogitating and writing down codifying sorry for the C's all of your professional values to decide are they in alignment with your employer and what sacrifices are you willing to make?

00:29:12.183 --> 00:29:16.936
Is there a role or a phase, a season of your life where you're okay.

00:29:16.936 --> 00:29:17.940
If they're out of balance.

00:29:17.940 --> 00:29:26.268
Maybe that phase or season is a year or two or three, because there's a lot of great skills to learn in this company, even though the values aren't aligned.

00:29:26.268 --> 00:29:28.118
You want to learn this skill.

00:29:28.118 --> 00:29:31.047
Take it to the next company where your values are aligned.

00:29:31.075 --> 00:29:34.887
I don't think it's a black or a white or a yes or a no, it's a.

00:29:34.887 --> 00:29:38.779
Where does this fit in my value system for what I am trying to accomplish?

00:29:38.779 --> 00:29:41.787
What's going to move me forward in life?

00:29:41.787 --> 00:29:45.909
You can't know if your values are in alignment until you've done it.

00:29:45.909 --> 00:29:50.041
There may be some cases where your values aren't in alignment.

00:29:50.041 --> 00:29:51.747
Then You've got some decisions to make.

00:29:51.747 --> 00:29:52.007
Right.

00:29:52.007 --> 00:29:54.324
I wasn't right for the Walt Disney Company.

00:29:54.324 --> 00:29:55.519
They weren't right for me.

00:29:55.519 --> 00:29:58.421
I didn't have my values written down.

00:29:58.421 --> 00:30:00.000
I was 23 years old.

00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:01.144
I didn't know what they meant.

00:30:01.144 --> 00:30:04.063
So you may require you to make some hard decisions.

00:30:04.063 --> 00:30:08.767
Be careful what you wish for, because when you write your values down, you may become very clear quickly.

00:30:08.767 --> 00:30:10.679
I'm in the wrong organization.

00:30:10.679 --> 00:30:12.865
That's okay.

00:30:12.865 --> 00:30:14.279
The economy is robust.

00:30:14.279 --> 00:30:20.208
Everybody is always hiring competent, trustworthy people focused on results all the time.

00:30:20.208 --> 00:30:25.665
Competent, trustworthy people focused on results.

00:30:26.875 --> 00:30:46.423
I think what you shared about other people deciding your career for you where the rubber meets the road is, if you've done all these things that you just mentioned and defining your personal and professional values, you can then decide what job you should pursue, except should you change jobs, Should you go to another company.

00:30:46.423 --> 00:30:55.998
I think that's really the foundation for it, like you said, is because a lot of times, if you're just looking for a paycheck, any road will get you there but then you get there.

00:30:56.077 --> 00:30:58.905
It might not be the right decision in some circumstance.

00:30:58.905 --> 00:31:03.787
Right, Listen, before my kids can't eat dinner, I'm going to go stock shelves at Costco at night.

00:31:03.787 --> 00:31:05.840
I'm going to do it because I have a responsibility.

00:31:05.840 --> 00:31:09.840
One of my roles in life is as provider for my family.

00:31:09.840 --> 00:31:13.028
I've made a commitment to my spouse to provide for my family.

00:31:13.028 --> 00:31:14.441
I'm going to do my best to get that done.

00:31:14.441 --> 00:31:17.703
There may be seasons in your life where that's the right thing to do.

00:31:17.703 --> 00:31:22.183
Don't let that be the one season that governs your entire life.

00:31:23.788 --> 00:31:45.128
Right, and the other interesting thing that you pointed out earlier is, I think, when this conflict exists, when your values don't align with your company's values that's when I really see fireworks on sites like Glassdoor and there's all kinds of craziness that ensues.

00:31:45.128 --> 00:31:55.480
It's really just a miscommunication about people prioritizing different things, and sometimes in a very spectacular emotional way.

00:31:56.000 --> 00:32:06.928
I also think there is a level of self-awareness, because you may you may not like the organization's values or align with them or naturally fit within them.

00:32:06.928 --> 00:32:09.125
It doesn't mean you should demonize them.

00:32:09.125 --> 00:32:15.905
It doesn't mean that means they have values and they've expressed them and they expect you to be accountable to them.

00:32:15.905 --> 00:32:27.362
And so I find I generally find people need to move outside their comfort zone, become more self-aware and recognize was this the right place for me?

00:32:27.362 --> 00:32:29.405
Did I honor their values?

00:32:29.405 --> 00:32:30.949
Do we value the same thing?

00:32:30.949 --> 00:32:33.922
And then ask yourself should you adjust?

00:32:33.922 --> 00:32:43.272
Because I would argue that increasingly, employers' values are becoming more similar than dissimilar.

00:32:43.272 --> 00:32:54.154
I think companies' values look more like this year than they did last year to their top competitive competitions.

00:32:54.154 --> 00:33:02.269
So I'll tell you this, because in my career I've had the privilege of interviewing thousands of people and hiring hundreds and terminating 18.

00:33:03.375 --> 00:33:11.438
And every single termination, eric, was because someone lacked the self-awareness to understand what it was like to work with them.

00:33:11.438 --> 00:33:14.905
They never lacked the technical competency to do the job.

00:33:14.905 --> 00:33:24.939
It was always they were completely self-aware of how mean, how arrogant, how independent, how non-collaborative, how finger-pointing, how victim they were.

00:33:24.939 --> 00:33:26.742
We all have this in us.

00:33:26.742 --> 00:33:29.088
We just need to become more self-aware.

00:33:29.088 --> 00:33:32.981
It's a little bit of a long topic insight, but it's super valuable.

00:33:32.981 --> 00:33:36.038
I write about it in the book right Around your brand as well.

00:33:36.038 --> 00:33:41.417
But typically, company values are going to triumph and trump and so go into it eyes wide open.

00:33:41.417 --> 00:33:42.922
Have you asked them?

00:33:42.922 --> 00:33:44.645
Are you clear about them?

00:33:44.645 --> 00:33:50.887
Do you know what that looks like in terms of behavior and results, and is that a place you can find your voice in?

00:33:50.887 --> 00:33:52.278
If not, look elsewhere.

00:33:54.045 --> 00:34:00.623
Yep, I think that's the right advice to understand what they are and can you align with it, can you live with it?

00:34:00.623 --> 00:34:06.222
Can you adopt it and merge it with your personal and professional goals?

00:34:06.222 --> 00:34:07.266
It doesn't matter, doesn't it?

00:34:07.266 --> 00:34:11.661
So let me ask you about personal branding in with your personal and professional goals doesn't measure, doesn't it?

00:34:11.661 --> 00:34:12.501
So let me ask you about personal branding.

00:34:12.501 --> 00:34:13.483
What advice would you give?

00:34:13.483 --> 00:34:18.751
The top two or three things if people want to build a great personal brand.

00:34:18.751 --> 00:34:27.561
You have a worksheet after that chapter in the book, but if you could just summarize as a precursor, before people are reading it.

00:34:27.882 --> 00:34:30.320
What are a couple of things they could do to build the best personal brand?

00:34:30.902 --> 00:34:31.463
Four things.

00:34:31.463 --> 00:34:34.764
Number one write down what you think your brand is.

00:34:34.764 --> 00:34:39.346
My brand is I have an indefatigable work ethic.

00:34:39.346 --> 00:34:41.518
I think I'm always right.

00:34:41.518 --> 00:34:44.646
I'm very loyal.

00:34:44.646 --> 00:34:48.503
I'll do whatever it takes to honor a promise.

00:34:48.503 --> 00:34:55.561
I overcommit, I under deliver and I'm willing to offer apologies and admit my mistakes.

00:34:55.561 --> 00:34:56.403
That's my brand.

00:34:56.403 --> 00:34:59.485
Notice I said I think I'm always right.

00:34:59.596 --> 00:35:02.880
There's a lot of baggage with that one right arrogance and the boundaries.

00:35:02.880 --> 00:35:13.806
To go ask people what my brand is, I think they would say you overcommit, you think you're always right, you're super loud, you can be really arrogant, you are a know-it-all, you're very loyal.

00:35:13.806 --> 00:35:18.322
But they would see my brand somewhat similar and also somewhat very differently.

00:35:18.322 --> 00:35:24.277
There's a massive chasm between how you see your brand and how others see your brand.

00:35:24.277 --> 00:35:35.050
So the first thing to do is write down how you see your brand, write down how they see their brand, your brand, and then decide what do you want your brand to be?

00:35:35.315 --> 00:35:51.478
I want my brand to be a guy that is loyal, that my promises are ironclad and I'm open to changing my mind, that you see me as nice and kind, but also a guy that talks straight and tells you the truth in a genteel but clear manner.

00:35:51.478 --> 00:36:02.106
And so if I want my brand to be someone that talks straight in a courageous but diplomatic way, I got to make some changes.

00:36:02.106 --> 00:36:04.130
I got to lower my voice.

00:36:04.130 --> 00:36:09.567
I've got to be a little more gentle, less forceful.

00:36:09.567 --> 00:36:13.501
I have to make sure I know what my body language is like my tone, my rate, my pitch.

00:36:14.356 --> 00:36:18.581
I have to sometimes not say what's on my mind and just hold it back and say, hey, is this the right thing to say?

00:36:18.581 --> 00:36:21.943
Do I have the rapport with this person to share this?

00:36:21.943 --> 00:36:25.025
Or is this making me feel good or making them feel better?

00:36:25.025 --> 00:36:29.626
Are they better off when they were around me or are they worse off from being around me?

00:36:29.626 --> 00:36:32.340
And so one how do you see your brand?

00:36:32.340 --> 00:36:39.583
Ask others how they see your brand, people that like you and people that dislike you.

00:36:39.583 --> 00:36:41.608
Don't just go to your champions.

00:36:41.608 --> 00:36:42.775
Go to your detractors.

00:36:42.775 --> 00:36:52.951
Then decide what do you want your brand to be and then, what behaviors and mindsets do you need to work on to make that your brand?

00:36:52.951 --> 00:36:55.280
Those are four really valuable steps.

00:36:57.465 --> 00:36:57.806
I love it.

00:36:57.806 --> 00:37:01.884
So let me ask you the networking section of the book.

00:37:01.884 --> 00:37:24.356
The one thing you advocate for is you mentioned the LinkedIn race to 30,000 and you do encourage people to get out there, connect with people on the different platforms and have goals of how they can connect with a certain number of people on each of the platforms, like LinkedIn and other platforms.

00:37:24.356 --> 00:37:30.208
What can you say about the quality of connections with people?

00:37:30.208 --> 00:37:33.574
Strong ties, weak ties, that's all about it, yeah.

00:37:34.175 --> 00:37:35.340
It's not a volume game.

00:37:35.340 --> 00:37:40.014
Right, to the extent I wrote about that, I was just giving people some insights into what your connections can be.

00:37:40.014 --> 00:37:44.766
Right, if you're an author and a podcaster, you probably need 150,000 connections.

00:37:44.766 --> 00:37:46.201
Not all of them are your best friends, right?

00:37:46.201 --> 00:37:49.266
You're using it as a publicity platform connections.

00:37:49.266 --> 00:37:50.469
Not all of them are your best friends, right?

00:37:50.469 --> 00:37:51.855
You're using it as a publicity platform.

00:37:51.855 --> 00:37:57.782
That's different than if you're looking for a job as a project manager in the renewables industry.

00:37:57.782 --> 00:38:00.590
You don't need 50,000 connections, you might need 400 that are solid people.

00:38:00.590 --> 00:38:09.896
So it's never volume, unless you're looking for it to be a publicity standpoint, and then I would argue it's a lot about volume, by the way, with credibility.

00:38:09.896 --> 00:38:12.217
But to your point I know you're fishing for.

00:38:12.217 --> 00:38:14.398
It's about what value do you add?

00:38:14.398 --> 00:38:14.639
Right?

00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:16.500
What is your mindset going in?

00:38:16.500 --> 00:38:18.280
Are you offering value?

00:38:18.280 --> 00:38:23.742
Are you manufacturing content that people might benefit from?

00:38:23.742 --> 00:38:26.144
Connect, connect, click, connect, connect.

00:38:26.144 --> 00:38:35.449
It's about looking for people that might interest you, that you might interest them, that you could add some value to their network, to their learning.

00:38:36.750 --> 00:38:43.672
I think too many people use social media to watch and not enough to offer.

00:38:43.672 --> 00:38:55.920
If you watch my social media, I post on six platforms about three times a day and it's some insight, some confession, something I've learned, a highlight of a podcast guest, a book that I've read.

00:38:55.920 --> 00:39:06.083
I try to offer value as much as I can, including whether it's a column or a blog that I wrote or excerpt from a book that I wrote.

00:39:06.083 --> 00:39:15.059
I create a lot of content video content, still photographs, bots, pithy things.

00:39:15.059 --> 00:39:17.523
I try to contribute a lot.

00:39:17.523 --> 00:39:40.295
I will tell you, social media is an invaluable asset when it comes to building your next career opportunities, because you, who you know, may not be your next leader, but who you know, is going to introduce you to your next leader.

00:39:40.295 --> 00:39:46.021
Something like 80 of all jobs now are referred by someone.

00:39:46.021 --> 00:39:51.509
They are not algorithmically plucked out of some scanning of your digital resume.

00:39:51.509 --> 00:39:58.657
It's Eric likes me, knows me, has been following me, reading my stuff.

00:39:58.657 --> 00:40:04.105
Maybe we play pickleball together, maybe we go to a conference together, maybe we just follow each other.

00:40:04.105 --> 00:40:07.509
And then Eric says to someone you know what you ought to read Scott Miller's book, current Course.

00:40:07.509 --> 00:40:09.592
And then Eric says to someone you know what you want to read Scott Miller's book Current Courts.

00:40:09.592 --> 00:40:16.007
I met the guy once, but I've been following him on social and he seems to be a decent guy, so I cannot overemphasize the value that social can have for you.

00:40:16.195 --> 00:40:19.445
I never say anything critical on my social.

00:40:19.445 --> 00:40:21.239
I don't talk about Trump.

00:40:21.239 --> 00:40:22.443
I don't talk about Biden.

00:40:22.443 --> 00:40:24.001
I don't diss Kamala Harris.

00:40:24.001 --> 00:40:29.847
I don't share my views on the Palestinians and the Israelis share my views on the Palestinians and the Israelis.

00:40:29.847 --> 00:40:31.211
There's other venues for that.

00:40:31.211 --> 00:40:45.307
I use my social media to buoy people, to lift people up, to pollinate great ideas and best practices and talk about what I am passionate about in a way that I think, to quote Dr Covey, to be a light, not a judge, to be a model, not a critic.

00:40:45.307 --> 00:40:53.226
There's other platforms and other venues for me to share my very articulated political, economic, societal passions about.

00:40:53.226 --> 00:40:56.295
I'm very thoughtful and intentional with my social media.

00:40:57.056 --> 00:40:58.079
Great advice, thank you.

00:40:58.079 --> 00:41:35.844
One of the things that I have heard you talk about previously but I'd like to see if you could expand on a little bit is you don't necessarily obsess about all of the comments on social media, but you do have a inner circle of people that give you advice, and that's how you get feedback and take your strategy forward, and I'm very passionate about this idea of people should build an inner circle of advisors that they trust and get advice from them rather than just listen to the echo chamber of social media.

00:41:35.844 --> 00:41:36.766
Can you talk a little bit about that?

00:41:37.315 --> 00:41:46.523
You've said it right At this point in my career by having literally tens of millions of people watch and listen to the three podcasts that I host.

00:41:46.523 --> 00:41:50.329
I've hosted an iHeartRadio program the three podcasts that I host.

00:41:50.329 --> 00:41:52.293
I've hosted an iHeartRadio program.

00:41:52.293 --> 00:41:58.240
I've been a book club moderator, written seven books, ink columns, hundreds of blogs, tens of thousands of social posts.

00:41:58.240 --> 00:42:02.449
A lot of people don't like me and I'm okay with that.

00:42:02.449 --> 00:42:05.655
That would crush my wife.

00:42:05.655 --> 00:42:06.896
A lot of people actually don't like me.

00:42:06.916 --> 00:42:13.643
I read some of the stuff on Reddit which I stopped reading a long time ago, and I know that, and I just I know that I'm not trying to be all things to all people.

00:42:13.643 --> 00:42:14.405
It's not possible.

00:42:14.405 --> 00:42:22.688
And so I have surrounded myself with about four to five very trusted people that know me well.

00:42:22.688 --> 00:42:31.317
They could confess all my sins, they can have a roast of me, but they know what my intention is and they know what my areas of growth are.

00:42:31.317 --> 00:42:33.722
They know what my expertise is.

00:42:33.722 --> 00:42:39.302
They probably see it more clearly than I do, and so I have a round table of people.

00:42:39.302 --> 00:42:46.902
I don't bring them together necessarily, but I don't, and I run most of my big ideas past them.

00:42:46.902 --> 00:42:47.945
I'm thinking about doing this.

00:42:47.945 --> 00:42:49.668
What do you think I'm thinking about that.

00:42:49.668 --> 00:42:56.400
Can you look at my social media and just scroll through it for the last three weeks and tell me how I perceive?

00:42:56.400 --> 00:42:57.244
How am I perceived?

00:42:57.244 --> 00:43:49.719
I do that a lot and not people from similar walks of life, not white male, 50-year-old former executives with a couple of commas in their income that are isolated in Salt Lake City, right, I like to have people around me that have very different walks of life and I have one person who I tend to be a little bit right of center I'm a Republican but not a current Republican and so I have a lot of my inner circle that are people that are very conservative and very liberal, because I want to get their opinion and I don't usually kowtow to them if that's the right word, shouldn't reflect to them, but I just like to know what their perspective is on it, meaning my latest post or my social or this podcast interview or how am I perceived like this and I just cogitate and then I go do what I think is right and I probably hit it about 60% of the time.

00:43:49.740 --> 00:43:54.860
I'll tell you, the best advice I ever got was from a communications coach.

00:43:54.860 --> 00:44:15.822
I was 30 years old and I was just promoted in my first big leadership position, a managing director of about 50 people, big sales nut in Chicago, and his communication coach said to me Scott, when you speak as much as you do, you're going to say things you regret, you're going to get things wrong, you're going to need a do-over, you're going to need to apologize.

00:44:15.822 --> 00:44:17.961
And I thought it was really valuable advice.

00:44:17.961 --> 00:44:24.248
Right, I try not to say things that are incendiary or flagrant just for the point of being provocative.

00:44:24.248 --> 00:44:27.625
I'm a pretty provocative person, but I'm going to get things wrong.

00:44:27.625 --> 00:44:31.490
Not everyone's going to agree with everything I say and I think the odds are in my favor.

00:44:31.490 --> 00:44:36.507
As long as I have a good conscience and my intent is pure and my desire is to help.

00:44:36.507 --> 00:44:39.280
I think a 60% batting average is good enough for me.

00:44:40.463 --> 00:44:41.146
Awesome advice.

00:44:41.146 --> 00:44:42.778
So any final thoughts?

00:44:42.778 --> 00:44:44.925
Anything I didn't ask that you wanted to share today.

00:44:45.556 --> 00:44:51.135
I'm just honored that you stuck with me in here and appreciate you spotlighting the career on course book.

00:44:51.135 --> 00:44:52.278
I'm really passionate about it.

00:44:52.278 --> 00:44:55.065
It's done well and it's doing well.

00:44:55.065 --> 00:44:56.719
I'm glad it resonated with you.

00:44:56.719 --> 00:44:57.443
I do think you're right.

00:44:57.443 --> 00:45:04.628
I think this is the kind of book that every college graduate should be given by their parents or their grandparents or their uncles or their godparents.

00:45:04.628 --> 00:45:14.018
Buy the book for a college graduate in your life and help to get her or his career on course 100% agree.

00:45:14.559 --> 00:45:19.456
Thank you very much for sharing all of your stories and your advice with us today, scott.

00:45:19.456 --> 00:45:25.615
I'm going to link to your website and your book and the show notes so people can easily get to it.

00:45:25.615 --> 00:45:27.943
We appreciate you being on today.

00:45:27.943 --> 00:45:29.568
Thank you very much, my honor.

00:45:29.568 --> 00:45:30.010
Thank you, eric.